disorganization in FIRST Administration?

[Greg Needel]

i am posting this thread as both an observation and a question that hopefully has an answer, it is not my intent to complain about things.

This year more then in the past it seems as if FIRST is very disorganized and it is possible that this is all coincidence but i am beginning to suspect it is more then that.

just a few of the problems this year
Manuel misprints - every year there are some but it seems like there were more then ever. different things from items mis-labeled to wrong amount numbers, causing confusion as to what we were and weren't supposed to have in the kit.

rule flip-flopping - many answers in the Q&A have been changed repeatedly giving contradicting information, and having the possibilities for messing up team designs very late in the game.

motor mistakes - the fisher price motor mix up giving motors rated for 6 volts, the van door motor where there are 3-4 different model numbers that vary in speed, as well as the implications of giving motors that have been deemed rejects from the factory

skimpy KOP - the KOP while very nice with the kit bot seems to be very small and inconsistent by previous years standards giving very limited materials to start with. (even though that is part of the challenge)

late information - information for the different regionals, suppliers and some game element drawings have been very late in their arrival.

these are just a few things i have noticed.


i understand that alot of what i have said can be written off to the fact that there are over 1000 teams and organization on that scale can be difficult, as well as the KOP could have been designed that way to increase the challenge but it just seems like alot of slip-ups this year.

now as a mentor/volunteer/ FIRST-o-holic i brought this information to the public eye to first identify if there is a problem and if there is ask if there is anyway the first community can help. I personally feel that FIRST is a wonderful program and i don;t want to see little problems interfere with the program's potential impact on the students involved in the program so if anyone knows whats going on or if FIRST comes forward and says they need help i am sure that the FIRST community can do whatever it takes to help the organization we have all come to care for so much.


once again this post was not meant to offend or criticize the way things are run the purpose it to identify a potential problem so that a solution can be rectified.

Greg Needel

[Travis Covington]

I actually have less to complain about this year than I did last year. I am actually impressed with some of the changes (especially the KOP tranny/chassis) You win some, you lose some. I think FIRST is doing a good job and has taken a few more steps forward than they have backwards.

[Billfred]

Right now, I'd put 2005 thus far in the A-/B+ range. The game has remained largely unchanged, and the kitbot is a home run in my book, but there's still the whole typos in the kit listing (which is one of those things you really really want to be accurate the first time) and the 6V Fisher-Price motor hullabaloo. Stuff happens--the trick is working around it.

(And if anyone from Fisher-Price happens to be reading this--we still love 'ya.)

[Mark Pettit]

Being a member of the glass-is-half-empty club, I commonly find myself scrutinizing FIRST (and everything else in which I participate). I can see your points that there are some shortcomings, but I also see it as another part of the challenge. In the real world, there are few constants and few instances where you will be given a perfect environment in which to work, especially in the engineering and design sectors. Information changes all the time because of advancements, enhancements, and even because the info wasn't accurate in the first place. Even when things are specifically spelled out in the real world, designs commonly fail to get built exactly as spec'd on paper, hence the term "as-built drawings".
There are several things that FIRST could improve upon, certainly, but I'm chalking it all up to being simply another part of the game/challenge.
All we can do is monitor these message boards and the FIRST Q&A System and spread the updated news to members of this community in hopes that we can play a part in making things right for our team as well as everyone else.
We're all in the same boat here. Just like in the game where our opponents are also our teammates, FIRST is sometimes an opponent and sometimes a teammate.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

motor mistakes - the fisher price motor mix up giving motors rated for 6 volts, the van door motor where there are 3-4 different model numbers that vary in speed, as well as the implications of giving motors that have been deemed rejects from the factory

I don't think we can blame the motor mistakes directly on FIRST. I think we should we should cast the blame on the suppliers for providing inconsistent hardware. Unfortunately, motors are a double edged sword, FIRST tries to get motors at near free costs and most companies want to make a tax write off in the best way for their bottom line.

I'm going to totally throw out pure speculation here and say that some bean counter (business person) thought that Fisher Price could dump their non-selling inventory and make a tax write off, on 6 volt motors. Never thinking of the engineering implications of the switch. Then when FIRST told the higher ups of the 6 volt motors upper-level management wanted to save face and now they'll provide a myriad of solutions at the competition event sites.

[JohnBoucher]

I understand and appreciate the concern expressed, but please remember FIRST is a mirror to "The REAL World" and in the real world, these things happen everyday. It's great when they don't, but you learn to question and crosscheck everything.

FIRST introduced a "NEW" game this year and is doing a great job steering us through the bumps in the road that come with "NEW".

[Ken Loyd]

I need to side with FIRST this time. Look at the numbers. With more teams comes more problems. I can remember years that were much more confusing than this year. I think FIRST has done a good job this year!

Ken

[RoboMom]

This spring, like in past years, FIRST will be holding team forums to get feedback from a designated mentor from each of the teams in an organized process. Criticism is ok as long as it is constructive and comes with solutions. It also helps to hear what things were done right. So start your list now, and then when the time gets closer, after the season, prioritize each item, given the whole picture. If you don't have a team forum near you, or a mentor can't attend, and you don't have a FIRST Senior Mentor in your area, I would be happy to make sure your organized and constructive opinions are heard. This is how we can all help FIRST understand what it is like, to be part of a team and in the trenches. Sometimes things that seemed like a big deal at the time, turned out to be minor in the big picture. And vice versa. This goes for the technical and non-technical aspects of running a team.

[dlavery]

Are there things that can be improved about the game, FIRST infrastructure, Kit-Of-Parts, documentation, etc.? Sure, there will always be improvements to be made. Even when the system is "really good" it can always be tweaked a little to make it even better.* But in contrast to last year, I think that FIRST has made a quantum leap forward in terms of quality, consistency, and support. We don't have the 40%+ error rates in the packing of the KOP. The number of real rule changes (vs. rule interpretations) after kick-off is down dramatically. I see major improvements and additions to the KOP (transmissions, robot frames, CMUcam, more software, etc.).

There have been some mistakes this year. Some of them have been made by FIRST, but many of them have been beyond FIRST's control. For example, the FP motor issue was a vendor supply problem. FIRST (and parts of Fischer-Price) thought they had the same motor/gearbox as last year. It was only after the teams really started to dig into the performance of the motors that the problem was discovered. FIRST responded, got in touch with Fischer-Price, and they both worked out a solution as quickly as they could to correct the problem as best as possible. Kudos to both Fischer-Price and FIRST for jumping on this (and the solution now leaves us with an even larger set of design possibilities than just replacing all the 6v motors with 12v motors!). I consider this a major improvement over some past years when an issue was discovered late in the build season and teams were basically told to "deal with it."

Where FIRST has slipped up, I know that they have been taking notes to make sure that these are addressed after the season and do not become repeated problems next year. They will probablly address most of them. Some will slip through the cracks, and they will also discover new mistakes to make next year. That is to be expected (with ANY organization). But overall, I think that the number and severity of mistakes is decreasing and the level of support is on an improving trend.

-dave

* (anyone get the analogy to the classic engineering problem of knowing when "better" becomes the enemy of "good enough"? )

[rees2001]

Does anybody remember 2002? How many rules changes were made that year? The tether bots being "not legal" but then at competition teams having them & using them. The bi-weekly change to the rule. The limitations in the stuff you could use.
I believe FIRST has made huge improvements to their systems, game designs, rules updates, & KOP. I think this year's KOP is a great improvement beyond other years. I wish we the improvements when we started. But if wishes were nickles teams wouldn't worry about sponsorship.

I give FIRST an A. Nice all around job this year. We'll see how the game goes & how well run the competitions are.

[EOC]

Compared to last year, I have experienced far fewer problems with FIRST, especially concerning the KOP. No organization operates flawlessly and that certainly applies to First. However, overall I would evaluate First as organized and efficient.