"Load Bearing Surface"

[Covey41]

Guy's,

Give up!! After reading Jason's reply it is obvious that FIRST is not going to change the rule. It's going to stay the same as it was on 11JAN05. You must "touch" the loading zone triangle.

I would also question the integrity of any Ref who would not follow FIRST's instructions on the rules.

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by Covey41

Guy's,

Give up!! After reading Jason's reply it is obvious that FIRST is not going to change the rule. It's going to stay the same as it was on 11JAN05. You must "touch" the loading zone triangle.

I would also question the integrity of any Ref who would not follow FIRST's instructions on the rules.

I would agree with you if that was the rule on 11jan05 but that is not what the rule said, It said robots must be in the zone never did the word touch come into play until the a few weeks in the build.

[meaubry]

Hey Covey,
This website was created many years ago by my team, for the purpose of allowing the FIRST community to share their thoughts and ideas, yes even complaints are welcome (if directed in a non-personal way, with good taste, and abiding by all of our rules).
You are allowed your feelings, let everyone else post theirs too.
Your previous post was clear thet you "don't feel sorry for anyone", which is cool, no problem - but don't take it upon yourself to tell others to "give up" posting their feelings about this really stupid rule.
Yes, I agree that Jason's post makes it pretty clear that FIRST will most likely not change or clarify the rule again, but that doesn't mean that this website or thread should be closed or folks should stop posting their feelings about touching the loading zone.
Perhaps next year, if not this year, rules like this will be addressed in a different (hopefully better) way.
And, I would never question the integrity of a ref, under any circumstances - those folks volunteer their time. They are human and sometimes make mistakes - we all will need to deal with that (even more so, this year).

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

I would agree with you if that was the rule on 11jan05 but that is not what the rule said, It said robots must be in the zone never did the word touch come into play until the a few weeks in the build.

No, it said touch. Q & A ID:978 answered on 1/11/05
Q: Regarding <G17>: What are the parameters for being "in" a loading zone? (i.e., must some part of the robot be touching the yellow triangle, et cetera)

A: There are no yellow triangles in the loading zones. The robot base and / or drive train must be touching the loading zone. The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone. By making it blatantly obvious that you are in the loading zone, you will draw far less attention from the referees.


The Q & A take precedence over the manual.

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by Ogre

No, it said touch. Q & A ID:978 answered on 1/11/05
Q: Regarding <G17>: What are the parameters for being "in" a loading zone? (i.e., must some part of the robot be touching the yellow triangle, et cetera)

A: There are no yellow triangles in the loading zones. The robot base and / or drive train must be touching the loading zone. The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone. By making it blatantly obvious that you are in the loading zone, you will draw far less attention from the referees.


The Q & A take precedence over the manual.

Again, they confused us a little bit by saying "The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone" They did not say it should be in the original 28x38 dimensions. if they had the word "touching" italicized or bolded or something it would've been much more clear to us that we had to build something that had to be TOUCHING. When they said it should be in the 28x30 box and touching, many many many many teams must have spent hours or days figuring out how to modify their drive train to fit that. I know we did.

[meaubry]

Ogre, True - but it wasn't until few weeks later that the answer to my question finally defined the part about the robot base. I asked the question because of the words "robot base AND/OR drive train".
Drive train was clear and understandable, but robot base was NOT. Base when we start? Base when we fall over? What part of the base? What is a robot base? And, "blatently obvious will draw far less attention", left me to wonder if that meant the ref's wouldn't be so quick to throw a flag in marginal conditions.
By then, we had already committed to a design with wheels spread 26" apart, and a secondary drive which rotates out in front of the 28" x 38" base, pivoting about our primary drive system axle. Once the match starts we intended on rotating the front bumper/secondary drive and play the match that way.
So, now we will change our strategy a little, and drive with the bumper up so the ref's can clearly see that the load bearing parts that we have on our 28" x 38" base are indeed touching before we collect a tetra.
We have practiced alot and I can tell you that we approach the loading zone quickly, grab the tetra and go, very very quickly. If the ref is watching the wheels for a load bearing violation they may miss us picking the tetra and if they are watching the tetra for a touching violation they will miss seeing our wheels. All in all, I really don't want to have to tell the students to go really really slow so the refs can see that we are blatently obviously bearing a load on the hdpe triangle - time is really important in order to put up a lot of tetras.
But, as Jason said earlier, We will adapt in order to not burden our alliance partners with unwanted and unnecessary penalties.

[rees2001]

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

Again, they confused us a little bit by saying "The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone" They did not say it should be in the original 28x38 dimensions. if they had the word "touching" italicized or bolded or something it would've been much more clear to us that we had to build something that had to be TOUCHING. When they said it should be in the 28x30 box and touching, many many many many teams must have spent hours or days figuring out how to modify their drive train to fit that. I know we did.

As usual the rules changed. FIRST probably looked at the the rule & thought this was an easy fix to say in the 28x38 dimension & touching. Touching makes sense, it is absolute, binary, you are or your not. There is no real grey area, the rule that has the most bearing on our team is the 28x38 footprint. That rule came 6 days before ship. 6 days! We had already designed & built a robot the falls from the 28x38 to 38x60. There is no redesigning possible at that point. We figured they would catch their wording and make one last change. I am confident that they still will. FIRST is a terrific program, run by normal people like Dave Lavery and Dean Kamen and Woodie Flowers...Maybe maybe not normal but very much like you and I.

[jgannon]

Okay, one more time.

Originally Posted by rees2001

As usual the rules changed.

The last time this rule changed was on 1/11/05. That was three days into build season... not an unreasonable amount of time.

Originally Posted by rees2001

FIRST probably looked at the the rule & thought this was an easy fix to say in the 28x38 dimension & touching.

"Touching" was part of the 1/11/05 ruling... long ago. 28x38 was a recent reminder of what a "base" is. In <R05>, it says that your robot must not exceed "a flat, level rectangular base 28 inches x 38 inches, and a height of 60 inches". The base is the 28x38 side, perpendicular to the 60in height, irregardless of what your robot does after the match starts.

Originally Posted by rees2001

the rule that has the most bearing on our team is the 28x38 footprint. That rule came 6 days before ship. 6 days! We had already designed & built a robot the falls from the 28x38 to 38x60. There is no redesigning possible at that point.

HOWEVER, your saving grace is that QA #978 also specifies "drive train". Since your base is not parallel to the floor, you most likely won't be able to use the ziptie/string method, but you are okay if your wheels touch. QA #1617 only discusses what comprises a "base", so the drive train clause is still valid.

Originally Posted by rees2001

We figured they would catch their wording and make one last change. I am confident that they still will.

Based on what I've said, do you still think a rule change is necessary?

Originally Posted by Bharat Nain

Again, they confused us a little bit by saying "The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone" They did not say it should be in the original 28x38 dimensions. if they had the word "touching" italicized or bolded or something it would've been much more clear to us that we had to build something that had to be TOUCHING. When they said it should be in the 28x30 box and touching, many many many many teams must have spent hours or days figuring out how to modify their drive train to fit that. I know we did.

Based on the definition of a "base" from above, where is the confusion? Your drive train does not and never has needed to be in the 28x38 base to be legally touching the loading zone triangle, and thus in the loading zone.

The Q&A, the manual, and update #14 have consistently indicated that either something within the 28x38 base of your robot OR the drive train must be touching the loading zone triangle. I personally don't see what's left to argue.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by rees2001

As usual the rules changed. FIRST probably looked at the the rule & thought this was an easy fix to say in the 28x38 dimension & touching. Touching makes sense, it is absolute, binary, you are or your not. There is no real grey area, the rule that has the most bearing on our team is the 28x38 footprint. That rule came 6 days before ship. 6 days! We had already designed & built a robot the falls from the 28x38 to 38x60. There is no redesigning possible at that point. We figured they would catch their wording and make one last change. I am confident that they still will. FIRST is a terrific program, run by normal people like Dave Lavery and Dean Kamen and Woodie Flowers...Maybe maybe not normal but very much like you and I.

That hurts.

I'd suggest either asking Q&A for a clarification for such a design, or make it so the side you start with on the floor somehow touches the loading zone. Really long strings and such.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Billfred

I'd suggest either asking Q&A for a clarification for such a design

Can you explain what clarification is needed? Their drive train is presumably touching the floor (unless they have a hoverbot, of which I would be extremely jealous), and you are allowed to touch the loading zone triangle with your drive train no matter where it is on the robot.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Can you explain what clarification is needed? Their drive train is presumably touching the floor (unless they have a hoverbot, of which I would be extremely jealous), and you are allowed to touch the loading zone triangle with your drive train no matter where it is on the robot.

That is correct--but in the Q&A, they mentioned 28x38. Therein lies the confusion.

[Alex1072]

Originally Posted by jgannon

"Touching" was part of the 1/11/05 ruling... long ago. 28x38 was a recent reminder of what a "base" is. In <R05>, it says that your robot must not exceed "a flat, level rectangular base 28 inches x 38 inches, and a height of 60 inches". The base is the 28x38 side, perpendicular to the 60in height, irregardless of what your robot does after the match starts.

I would disagree with this. Our team is not at all effected by this change (to give this some objectivity). I think what you are saying is one possible way to interpret that rule. However, when I read that, I assumed it was refering to the base of the box that the robot had to fit in. If the word "base" in <R05> was refering to the robot base, the rule would imply that all robots must have a flat, level, rectangular base. Since this is obviously not what is intended, I think 'base' refers to the base of the sizing box.

EDIT: oops, pressed enter before finishing

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Billfred

That is correct--but in the Q&A, they mentioned 28x38. Therein lies the confusion.

1617 says:

The robot base is considered to be any load-bearing surface within the maximum 28" x 38" robot base size.

The 28x38 refers only to the "base". The drive train is not redefined in 1617, so the ruling of 978, that the drive train counts as touching, still stands regardless of size.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Alex1072

If the word "base" in <R05> was refering to the robot base, the rule would imply that all robots must have a flat, level, rectangular base. Since this is obviously not what is intended, I think 'base' refers to the base of the sizing box.

It doesn't say that your robot must have a flat rectangular base, but rather that it must fit in a box with a flat rectangular base, and maintain those dimensions until after the start of the match. The way I see it is that the top of something remains the top forever, even if you drop it on its side, so the base in the box is your base in the match. Nonetheless, your interpretation is still valid. We will probably see one more Q&A question come up that will further clarify.

[thoughtful]

As i told you guys before that i asked the question about the diagram, it has been answered in update #14 and ID:1757

#1757
The pictures are for illustrative purposes only and may not be completely detailed. The
purpose of this picture is to demonstrate the human player loading only.
Also see #978... the rule has been "touching" since 1/11/2005.
Using the baseball analogy,...
Imagine in baseball if the runner just had to be over the base to be safe?

I have to admit i am a bit disappointed, but i think that by allowing us to use zipties, string e.t.c to make our robot touch the HDPE triangle, FIRST has made it easier for the teams who were previously confused. I can understand their point of view, and of many, that the 3D space analogy might create problems. I am not going to let this ruin mine or my team's excitement, spirit and commitment. We are engineers here, its our job to overcome challenges. So lets just ride the tide, and have another great, fun-filled year.

Cheers