YMTC: Redabot Loads Ten Tetras Without Moving

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

It's the first match at the Magnolia Regional, Redabot creeps out of the starting blocks in autonomous mode and takes 15 seconds to get to the auto-loader. After autonomy, Redabot clearly straddles the red loading zone triangle, then places a pneumatically actuated foot onto the HDPE, then grabs a tetra and places the tetra in its storage bin. Redabot then pulls up its foot, waits for the field attendant to place a tetra on the auto-loader and repeats its foot-down--grab-tetra--foot-up sequence. Ten tetras later and without moving an inch, Redabot leaves the loading zone to go bulldoze its way around the field to place tetras.

Based on the 2005 Game Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[TLonghorns0593]

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

[Natchez]

Everyone, sorry I did not post a poll. my browser was hanging up when I submitted the YMTC and would not proceed to the poll entry page. I tried a couple of times with no success and have not figured out how to add a poll to a post.

Originally Posted by TLonghorns0593

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

Eric,

Please tell us where this rule is located. I've looked but I have not found a "back up 3 foot" rule or clarification. I have found G14 which says.

<G14> Field attendants will place TETRAS on the Tetra Loading Stations on the side of the field opposite the HUMAN PLAYERS (ie. the “automated” LOADING ZONE). At any time, a ROBOT may enter the corresponding LOADING ZONE, retrieve the TETRA from the Loading Station, and enter it into play. The HUMAN PLAYER does not have to leave the pressure pad sensor during this operation. When the TETRA is removed from the Loading Station and the ROBOT has left the LOADING ZONE, the field attendant will place a new TETRA on the Loading Station. Robots may not intentionally interfere with field attendant’s efforts to place TETRAS on the Loading Stations.

Thanks,
Lucien

[ChrisH]

It all depends on which standard you are using, which no doubt is the point of this YMTC.

If you use the "touching" standard from Q&A and the Updates then obviously Redabot is acting in a legal manner.

But the intent of this rule is difficult to determine. As quoted above, rule <G14> specifically states the robot must move into the loading one. This implies that the loading zone is a three dimensional space because you cannot be both "touching" and "in" unless you are inside the triangle. If the triangle was composed of surfaces, like a cardboard box, you can be both simultaneously. But since the triangle in this case is only 1/4" high and is solid to boot, this is rather difficult.

The basic confusion has been due to the conflicting terminology used by FIRST in formulating the rules and in answering questions. In some places they use terminology that obviously can only apply to 3 dimensional space. Other places they use terminology that might apply to either 3 dimensional space or 2 dimensional space. The more they try and straighten this out, the more confused people get because they continue the mixing of terms.

My original interpretation of the rules, back when we all "knew" the loading zone was 3 dimensional, was that Redabot would have to move back a short distance and then re-enter the loading zone to pick up additional tetras. This may still be an operational requirement because the humans loading the autoload stations are not obligated to do so until they feel it is safe. I personally would not feel safe being within reach of an active robot. So if I was the loader I would probably wait until Redabot had backed off enough so it couldn't clobber me, regardless of the position of it's little foot.

So Lucien, don't worry about not being able to post a poll. Those of us who have been following this would probably answer both ways anyway.

[Warren Boudreau]

While the rules treat the loading zone as a 2-dimensional entity. The field attendant is going to treat the ROBOT as a 3-dimensional entity that may take his/her head off if he/she gets too close to the loader while the robot is sitting there.

As long as the field attendant feels that there is a safety hazard, they are not obligated to refill the loader until that hazard is removed (i.e., you pull the robot away from the loading zone).

So, even though there isn't a rule about having to pull away from the loader, you might have to just to get the loader refilled.

[Greg Marra]

Assuming the attendant reloads the station, the robot would be acting in accordance with the rules as of Update #13.

Perhaps this is of greater importance for the human loading station, where valuable seconds can be cut off loading time.

[Petey]

The robot has clearly not left the loading zone. It has merely stopped being in contact with it.

This is like asking, if you are hanging from a pullup bar in your weight room, whether or not you are "in" the weight room. It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

More importantly, I don't think any assistant would reload the station during that time.

--Petey

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Petey

It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

That would be a reasonable assumption.

In light of the Q&A answers and rule updates, though, it doesn't seem to be a correct assumption. I can only read the official rules now as meaning that the loading zone is the triangle, and being "in the loading zone" means touching the triangle.

I don't much like that interpretation, but it's apparently the one FIRST is establishing as correct.

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Petey

It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

Petey, I believe that this is a bad assumption. If there is only one thing that this YMTC does, I hope that it is rule awareness about what being in the zone really means. Which, of course, I'm still not sure what it means

Originally Posted by Petey

More importantly, I don't think any assistant would reload the station during that time.

This has been brought up a few times but if the robot backed a trailer into the loading zone with just a simple finger that plucked the tetras over the "holders" then it would be very safe for the attendant. Actually, I considered making the YMTC be that a trailer that was not part of the original 28" x 38" base be on the HDPE (currently defined as not making a robot "in the zone"). Then having a foot touch down that was inside the 28" x 38" base. It got very confusing ... I'm still confused.

Lucien

[TLonghorns0593]

Sorry i guess i was thinking of the pinning rule while posting but
<G17> A ROBOT that has received a TETRA may not collect another TETRA until it leaves and then re-enters
the LOADING ZONE. A violation will result in a 10-point penalty, and the TETRA will not be SCORED.
The way I interpret that is you have to back up off of the loading zone and then re-enter. I don't think that just removing the object that touches the zone would count. I guess it will be up to the interpretaion of the judges to decide what is leaving the zone.

[slickguy2007]

Isn't their some rule saying that you aren't allowed to put a "foot" down onto the field?....


GO 1403!!!

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by TLonghorns0593

Sorry i guess i was thinking of the pinning rule while posting but
<G17> A ROBOT that has received a TETRA may not collect another TETRA until it leaves and then re-enters
the LOADING ZONE. A violation will result in a 10-point penalty, and the TETRA will not be SCORED.
The way I interpret that is you have to back up off of the loading zone and then re-enter. I don't think that just removing the object that touches the zone would count. I guess it will be up to the interpretaion of the judges to decide what is leaving the zone.

The problem, as has been discussed exhaustively elsewhere, is that as things stand just removing your "foot" does count as leaving the zone. This leaves the robot in reach of the loading station and the attendant if they decide to place a tetra. This is not safe and subverts the apparent intent of an otherwise reasonable rule <G17>.

So what we have is one rule that kind of makes sense, undermining in a very real way a second rule that makes all kinds of sense. In addition, the undermining rule has been shown to be difficult to enforce fairly, because the refs can not always see whether a team is in compliance or not. Often the team themselves might not be able to tell whether they are "in the zone" or not. [Note to self] new strategy, block opponents view of triangle and hope they rack up lots of penalties, maybe use that "Kingman cloth" from 2003? [/End Note]

[Kims Robot]

I think by the rules, this is a legal "move from the zone", however, as pointed out, if it is not easy to tell that the foot has been lifted, the attendant may never know. I think it is safest for a team to retract the arm and back up at least a foot so that the attendant knows something has changed.

I think the most important thing with these fuzzy rules(ie a lot of these YMTC rules), is that whatever the judges rule, or however the game starts, it remains consistant. Looking at this redabot example, if redabot were allowed to load in this manner on the red alliance, and then switched to the blue alliance in the next QM, and the blue autoloader attendant did not know about this team's "foot" idea, it may cause some issues when the bot goes to load as part of the blue alliance...

Has anyone submitted this exact question to FIRST to get their take on it?

[ScottWolchok]

Originally Posted by Petey

It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

Assuming that this is true, any arm on the robot is still part of the robot. Therefore, for your interpretation to have the desired effect, the rule would have to refer to the "drive base" of the robot, thereby construing the part of Redabot "straddling" the triangle as "in the loading zone".

On a side note, the rules about the loading zone seem to, on the whole, point to an intent to cause the game to be all about scoring tetras and "clever" snatching away of goals as soon as opposing robots move, as opposed to trying to maximize alliance and team mobility while minimizing opponent mobility, i.e. cutting off the supply of tetras.

[Tuba4]

This YMTC is a two edged sword. According to the following answers from the Q & A, Redabot is legally "leaving" the loading zone by raising it's foot:

ID: 978 Section 4.3.3 Status:Answered Date Answered:1/11/2005

Q: Regarding <G17>: What are the parameters for being "in" a loading zone? (i.e., must some part of the robot be touching the yellow triangle, et cetera)

A: There are no yellow triangles in the loading zones. The robot base and / or drive train must be touching the loading zone. The intent of this rule is that you must be in the loading zone. By making it blatantly obvious that you are in the loading zone, you will draw far less attention from the referees.


ID: 1393 Section: 4.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 2/8/2005

Q: As I read the clarifications so far, a robot can be straddling a loading zone triangle with the triangle extending nearly two feet under the robot, but the robot is not "in" the loading zone. Am I interpreting the rule correctly?

A: See #978. It is very clear.

The Q & A answers clearly make this a two dimensional situation. Touching the zone is all important.

Now the question becomes does the field attendant understand that Redabot has "left" the loading zone? And is it "safe" to reload?

I realize safety is extremely important. While it may in fact be stated somewhere, I do not remember reading any safety statement in any of the loading zone rules like the following statement regarding the placement of bonus tetras:

<G10> "All bonus tetras will be stacked on the goals by field attendants at the earliest safe opportunity after the end of the autonomous period."

Bottom line for me is while Redabot is in fact making a legal play, if it is left to the discretion of the field attendant as to when to reload, it may not have a big impact.

And don't forget: 10 tetras at 9 pounds each on the end of a 12 foot arm! That would be a great feat indeed!!!