engineer bots

[Validius]

prenote: I'll make cliffs later if enough ppl want them.

This was team 1549's rookie year and though we had some FIRST vets (one was on his 5'th year. he is a college student now) most of us, including myself, were rookies to FIRST. Anyways, moving on...

A little about our team: there is a charter high school at Washtenaw community college that i am in and that is the home of team 1549. Our team consists of high school and college students. The college students are mostly majoring in industrial robotics, fluid power and machining. Most of them are not engineers.

The point?
At GLR this year we saw teams who's bots were obviously totally designed by the engineers. While this is legal i do not think it is with the spirit of FIRST. There were 4 builders (including myself) and 1 programmer who did 70% of the work on team 1549's robot. A few more guys jumped in in the last 2 weeks. Except for our passive gripper and the winch drum everything was designed, made and put together by high school and college students.

Our bot, while very good (when the drive program isn't screwed up and I'm not getting ramming penalties), cant measure up to these superbots.

There is nothing that can really be done so i guess i am just ranting for my own sanity. I just wanted to point out the unfair advantage that many teams have.

Also, i cannot conclude a post about building the bot without thanking the mentors, particularly Kieth and Gary. Without your guidance, passing on the wisdom of past experience and teaching the team how to be a team we could never have gotten this done. Thanks guys!

[Mike Martus]

This subject has been debated over and over for years. Please search out some of the posts regarding this.

Summary in my words and my opinions:
There are many types of FIRST teams with their own unique way of organization, building, engineering, fund-raising and yes participation levels of students and engineers.

The true focus must remain the I in FIRST - Inspiration. How a team desires to inspire can run the full range from 100% student designed robots to the robots that have significant professional engineering. In both cases the Inspiration can be either weak or strong. It is how the team leadership decides to make their team run.

Dean has said many times that Engineers and Teachers Inspiring youth to get involved in careers involving Science Engineering and math is the real mission. How it is done is up to the team. There are no magic formulas for we are all from different schools, different socio economic situations and have different levels of engineering/corp support.

Is this unfair - YES. Would it not be great if we were all from wealthy communities and had corporate partners that could support teams without budget restrictions and all had students that were all college bound with scores of 35 on the ACT. And all students getting a free ride to a college of their choice.

That (above) is not true and yet can be unfair.

Is it unfair for a student not to know where their next meal is coming from - YES
Is it unfair for a student to have a terminal illness - YES
Is it unfair for a team to make their robot from used metal - YES
Is it unfair for a team not to have an engineer on their team - YES

Look, life is not fair. FIRST competitions are not fair. This is life. We make the best path we can and do everything possible to stay on it.

Instead of focusing on what other teams have look at the INSPIRATION. Were you inspired by the experience. If so, FIRST has accomplished its mission as well as your team mentor. If you are NOT inspired take a close look at why. Please do not use the lack of resources as the excuse....I am sure there are others.

Sorry for the long answer but I hold the INSPIRATION in FIRST as the most important mission. As a team leader if I do not INSPIRE I have failed, and I do not like to fail.

Mike Martus Team #47
I have been with FIRST for 10 years and see the inspiration.

[Chris Fultz]

I am 100% with Mike on this one.

Every team and every situation is different, and they can change from year to year. The true measure of a successful team is the Inspiration part -
and that can come in a lot of different ways. Each team and each team member has an opinion about what is best.

[Nitroxextreme]

i agree with both opinions in this discussion

we are a rookie team and had minimal help as well as funding
we worked so hard to get our robot going and then to see it work was awesome

but then to get to the regional and see another rookie team with a machined robot that looked to be built by others

i mean we did good but we were unable to get to nationals and a team that couldn't even control their robot could

thats just where everything in my opinion comes into question

[zooballski]

Originally Posted by Nitroxextreme

i agree with both opinions in this discussion

we are a rookie team and had minimal help as well as funding
we worked so hard to get our robot going and then to see it work was awesome

but then to get to the regional and see another rookie team with a machined robot that looked to be built by others

i mean we did good but we were unable to get to nationals and a team that couldn't even control their robot could

thats just where everything in my opinion comes into question

I agree you guys had an amazing robot, but rookie all-star is not all about what you do on the field and this year it was won in the pits. I agree we did not perform that great on the field. We shipped out our robot with minimal driving time which was our rookie mistake. But to say we didn't build it is ubsurd. Team 1676's robot was completly student designed and built. The engineers just guided us along. I think you should rethink posting something like this before you get all the facts.

[Hick18]

I myself would have to take a neutral side in this discussion. I have participated in both atmospheres. My first year on team 703 there was a core of about 5 students and 2 mentors that built,wired,programmed,and drove the robot. It was a very tight nit group of individuals that worked together very well. In fact we placed 5th out of 75 teams at the canadian regional last year. Then there was this year when we took in team 902 that had been disbanded by its home school. They had a group of 8 engineers that came with them when they joined our team. At first I felt the same way that most of you feel. I didnt want any engineers telling me how to build our robot, but now i wouldnt have it any other way. Not that the Engineers were the sole designers of our robot, Bill had us helping him design components whenever possible. I along with the rest of our team has developed a great relationship with some of these guys that we were weary about to begin with. Some of them are just like us, Kids in grownups bodies just wanting to have fun (no offense Matt we wouldnt have it any other way). The point i am tring to make is that there are points to both sides of the story and what a team decides is up to them. They both have there strengths along with there weaknesses. But i do know one thing. We started FIRST to achieve a common goal and not only will we leave with more knowledge and wisdom, we will leave as friends and thats what really counts if you ask me. And one final thing i would like to thank all the mentors for teaching me so much. Thanks alot guys.

[Validius]

personally i learned most in the area of teamwork because the mentors STAYED OUT to a large extent. In fact, i think they did a perfect job. They made sure we worked on the stuff we wernt so interested in. They made a few things, stuff that we had no idea about and could have never made (like a nifty design for our passive gripper). We decided to modify it quite a bit later, on our own and it worked out great. There certainly was a balance.

[KenWittlief]

When I was on the Fairport team last year, we tried to show the students how to do everything. During the first few weeks we found we had to start all the tasks ourselves (the mentors) until the students could see how it was done. Then one by one we handed the tasks off, stepped in only when someone was stuck, and then only to get things going again.

I found this message I posted last year. I think it sums up my opinion on this matter perfectly:

Success!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tonight was our second last official team meeting. About an hour after we got there I didnt really have anything to do, so I was walking around our different work areas

the sparkies were working on the C programming for auton mode, and experimenting with an old gyro sensor hooked to my oscilloscope

the gearheads were attaching the chainguard to our roller and putting the collection net on, and a group of others were working on the arm assembly

one of the parents was working with a student, attaching a fisherprice motor to our commerical vacuum pump

and a handfull of students were making buttons.

I ran into another mentor, Dr Hensel and he had the same silly grin I had.

We could have both gone home and nobody would have missed us - and there are only 3 of us engineers on the team.

Our students have successfully taken over just about everything.

I ended up spending a half hour helping to make buttons.

I think our mission is accomplished. Everything else that happens after today is frosting on the cake! :^)

[Bharat Nain]

Originally Posted by zooballski

I agree you guys had an amazing robot, but rookie all-star is not all about what you do on the field and this year it was won in the pits. I agree we did not perform that great on the field. We shipped out our robot with minimal driving time which was our rookie mistake. But to say we didn't build it is ubsurd. Team 1676's robot was completly student designed and built. The engineers just guided us along. I think you should rethink posting something like this before you get all the facts.

I think 1676 made a very smart move. For their rookie year, they build their robot based on our 2004's robot because they saw it worked. It wouldn't matter if their robot was 100% engineer built as long as the kids on their team were getting inspired. I can tell you this team more than deserved the Rookie All Star. Go look at the website, their chairmans/rookie all star submission[Holy God its amazing], the character of the students on the team. They are an awesome team. Great job 1676.

-Bharat

[KenWittlief]

some people would point fingers at team 1549 and say "what? you let college students help build your bot? we only let HS students build ours"

every team has their own approach - some teams take a few years to find their balance.

but in the end, its all good.

[Cory]

Please, everyone, before you post in this thread, read what you're about to say. Heck, even have someone else read it.

This is one of those sensitive topics where people have a knee jerk reaction and immediately post their thoughts. This is also one of those topics that we've never been able to have an intelligent, mature discussion on. It quickly degenerates into name calling, and finger pointing.

Also, unless you have some insight into the day to day runnings of another team, please do not insinuate that the students on such teams do not do any of the work. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but fact of the matter is, you really don't know.

As a warning, please keep discussion civil and on topic, or this thread will have to be closed.

[Arefin Bari]

Personally, I really don't care if there is a team whose robot was built by the engineers. What I get out of FIRST is the satisfaction of working with the team. I love my team, I like it how all the personal problems go away when all of us come together to make this possible and show what SigmaC@T can do. Mentors are always there to help us. If they weren't there to help us, FIRST wouldn't be where it is now. The engineers never give up even after taking times off from work, getting yelled at by their wife, even putting themselves into jeopardy.

... I can also understand the problem with a team (with a student built robot) saying its not fair for another team to have a robot which is engineer built. But think positive. Put your mind together and take on the challenge.

Welcome to the real world.

[Freddy Schurr]

[/b]What I think?

I agree on both parts. I mean INSPIRATION means different for everyone and their team. Is it okay for someone else building their team robot, NO. Is it fair to the other teams to compete in competitions with no engineers and limited budget and go against teams with super bots. NO. But its OK. Like a previous poster above said "Welcome to the real world" This is true, in life its not fair. I mean our robot is made totally by my team, just regular students, NO OUTSIDE HELP. Our school board and local sponsors are our only means of funding. But again, its OK. Yeah, I wish that our robot got some help from engineers and we had more money. But we have the greatest of times and when our robot hits the field, it realllys shows. I am proud of "Sweet FEEET" and my team.

Don't be discourage and just have fun.

[Validius]

Originally Posted by Cory

Please, everyone, before you post in this thread, read what you're about to say. Heck, even have someone else read it.

This is one of those sensitive topics where people have a knee jerk reaction and immediately post their thoughts. This is also one of those topics that we've never been able to have an intelligent, mature discussion on. It quickly degenerates into name calling, and finger pointing.

Also, unless you have some insight into the day to day runnings of another team, please do not insinuate that the students on such teams do not do any of the work. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but fact of the matter is, you really don't know.

As a warning, please keep discussion civil and on topic, or this thread will have to be closed.

You are right, inspiration is king. I also know that there would not have been the inspiration if i would not have been a serious part in building the robot. I learned about all sorts of stuff, i learned about materials, hot to lathe, mill and even how to weld. I was also very saddened and disappointed when we got our tail tanned by a few teams who's high school members never even touched the bot in the pits. the veteran *insert big 3 sponsor here* engineers did all the stuff.

It isn't about money, we had a huge machine shop at our disposal (community college has a machining program) complete with good CNCs and everything. we even had a high schooler who was in the CNC programming associates degree. We also had money, the college said they would pay for everything. What we didn't have was lots of engineers who have what only time can give... experience.

I am glad we didn't, i am very proud of our bot. I wish that every FIRST team could feel such pride in THEIR work.

No, I'm not going to resort to name calling like some of these threads do. I am not angry, i just feel cheated. I also feel for other high schoolers who may have been cheated. *EDITED OUT for lack of clarity* In many ways FIRST is becoming commercialized. but sponsors are a necessary evil.

It is reasons like that that i am against having a big 3 company sponsor us.

[Moose497]

The point?
At GLR this year we saw teams who's bots were obviously totally designed by the engineers. While this is legal i do not think it is with the spirit of FIRST. There were 4 builders (including myself) and 1 programmer who did 70% of the work on team 1549's robot. A few more guys jumped in in the last 2 weeks. Except for our passive gripper and the winch drum everything was designed, made and put together by high school and college students.

Our bot, while very good (when the drive program isn't screwed up and I'm not getting ramming penalties), cant measure up to these superbots.

There is nothing that can really be done so i guess i am just ranting for my own sanity. I just wanted to point out the unfair advantage that many teams have.

Also, i cannot conclude a post about building the bot without thanking the mentors, particularly Kieth and Gary. Without your guidance, passing on the wisdom of past experience and teaching the team how to be a team we could never have gotten this done. Thanks guys!

Hi Validius!

I can sincerely understand your frustration. The only thing that I can suggest is that you change your perspective just a little. It sounds like you had a good experience with your team and mentors this year and I'm sure learned a lot and hopefully developed some new relationships. You should be rightfully proud of your accomplishments and of the product you and your team produced. That is what FIRST is really about. You certainly sound "inspired" and that is the most important aspect of FIRST (IMO). Focus on your teams accomplishments. Every team is different. Just try to make yours the most excellent it can be and I assure you that your experience with FIRST will be of great value and satisfaction to you.

I can understand how easy it is for it to seem like people are "cheating" when it looks as though professional engineers built the robot with little participation from students. When this does happen, the people who are shortchanged the most are the students who didn't have the opportunity to participate in building the robot.

I am an engineer so I know how hard it is to not jump in and "build" the robot by insisting on what I think is best. I also know that we end up with a better robot because I don't! Seriously! You don't have to be an engineer to have great ideas. I see my role as trying to help the students implement THEIR ideas. Sometimes they work, and sometimes they don't. Finding solutions is what engineering is about. I also know that the best way to learn is by trying and, sometimes failing. I remember and learned a whole lot more from the mistakes I made as a young engineer than the things that worked out right out of the box. You know what? I still make mistakes (though I like to think not as many) and I still learn from them.

Don't let your frustration impact your "sanity". Be the very best you can be and inspire your team to seek the same goal. Make the maximum use of whatever resources you have at your disposal. There will always be teams with more and teams with less. Try to focus on getting the maximum amount out of all the resources you and your team have. If you do that, you can be very proud of your accomplishments, no matter what another team does or does not do.

Best of luck to you! (sorry for the long winded reply!)