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Unread 04-04-2005, 16:53
Dave Flowerday Dave Flowerday is offline
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
This seems inconsistent to me. The original poster possibly has misconceptions about said team, and should be corrected. It's not something to get defensive and upset about if one is said to have an engineer-bot, right?
The defensive response is because the original poster and some follow-ups implied that such teams are somehow cheating their students out of an opportunity, by asking questions like "What is the point of robotics if adults are the ones designing, engineering, building, and servicing the robot?"

The fact that these conclusions are reached on false information (that the robots in question actually are not 100% adult built) is simply salt in the wound.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 17:10
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Here we go again

I'm bored...so I'll post.

I was a student on Team 234 for 3 years. we're viewed (i think) as one of the middle of the road teams, possibly more on the engineer side. we have some really great engineers and teachers. we also have some really amazing kids. i can back that up:

98% of student's on 234 have attended college
60% for technical or scientific degrees (sounds like FIRST in a nutshell to me)
4 students now work for Rolls-Royce (a sponsoring company); many others work elsewhere
Last year, Purdue University awarded 2 scholarships, one for 30K and one for 28.5K...they went to two 234 students
This year, another Purdue scholarship (8K) went to a 234 student

2 former student's now work with teams other than 234, and one works with 234 and indianaFIRST.org
(if you want more information stop by 234's pits in ATL...they'll hit you with some knowledge)


I am now a freshman at Purdue University, in Mechanical Engineering. I've just begun to crack the tip of the iceberg of what engineering is. To think that one can "learn" engineering in 6 weeks while under the strain of building a robot too is proposterous. FIRST isn't about teaching. It's about inspiring.

Talk to the kids. Find out if they're inspired. I bet you they'll say yes.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 21:56
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday
The defensive response is because the original poster and some follow-ups implied that such teams are somehow cheating their students out of an opportunity, by asking questions like "What is the point of robotics if adults are the ones designing, engineering, building, and servicing the robot?"

The fact that these conclusions are reached on false information (that the robots in question actually are not 100% adult built) is simply salt in the wound.
I'm in no way trying to present false information, I am just reporting my experience through interactions with other teams and mentors. I have talked to mentors who have advised teams that have the students tell the engineers what they want, then the students see the finished product a few weeks later.
I'm not saying that these students should feel cheated, they are free to feel however they want too. Maybe they like having an adult built robot that performs well and wins all the time.
I acknowledge that part of FIRST is about inspiration, but inspiration cannot have a full effect without interaction. Teams that truly inspire students to pursue engineering involve those students in the process. Hands on experience is the way robotics inspires students to get involved in engineering. Even if some students choose not to build their robot because they deal with other aspects of FIRST seeing other students work on the robot can be inspiring as well.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 22:26
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

-Writing a program with me not included when i am the actuall programmer who is suppouse to do all this...i have waited for the entire year to program that bot and the mentors kindaof ruined it for me. I know they are trying to help out but they crossed the line when they do everything for you and leave you with no jobs to do. I thought the mentors were suppose to help out and teach the students how to do stuff but why are they doing it for us??? isn't it our job??
That was what really bothered me and espeically when you ask them for some help and they end up not helping you but ignoring your request for help.

Last edited by davelu : 04-04-2005 at 22:28.
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Unread 19-04-2005, 08:27
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davelu
-Writing a program with me not included when i am the actuall programmer who is suppouse to do all this...i have waited for the entire year to program that bot and the mentors kindaof ruined it for me. I know they are trying to help out but they crossed the line when they do everything for you and leave you with no jobs to do. I thought the mentors were suppose to help out and teach the students how to do stuff but why are they doing it for us??? isn't it our job??
That was what really bothered me and espeically when you ask them for some help and they end up not helping you but ignoring your request for help.
I could see where that could be an issue - I would hope that you could feel comfortable bringing up issues like this in your team meetings. If not, perhaps speaking with your team leader privately about your concerns might help - you may not be the only one this has affected. Or perhaps you and the mentor have personality conflicts (that may or may not be able to be resolved). These situations often occur in the workplace. Learning how to deal with them can be a great learning experience now. Does your team have an end-of-year assessment program? If not, I recommend that you implement one this year. It gives the team members a way to step back and say, Ok, this is what I did this year, this is what I wasn't able to do, this is what I had hoped to do. One of the questions we ask is, "How did the team help you be successful this year?" and another, "What could the team do better?"
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Unread 04-04-2005, 17:15
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

I know I've already replied to this, but something seems to be missing from the posts. Maybe it was in other threads before.

Isn't one of the goals of FIRST to promote relationships between students and adults that may not have otherwise formed? I'm sure I remember that from somewhere. By working WITH the mentors, our team's students have formed bonds like this. That type of thing might not happen if one group or the other does all the work.

We correct our mentors almost as often as they correct us. Like how our head mentor never had his safety glasses on in the pit; the whole team was on his back constantly about that. The students generally know the rulebook more thoroughly than the mentors, too, so the adults ask us about rules.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 22:52
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

We had the problem of menotrs takeing over the team in the past. Our team's mentors kind of took a lead role, they were involved with team 228 since 1999 and when we split off in 2003 they had a general idea on how to have a competitive robot. Funding and organization was our problem in 2003 and 2004 along with the fact the students were mostly new to FIRST and didn't understand we couldn't do every challenge the game threw at us (like last year had so much to do).

In 2004 we had the final pieces in place of our team as far as organization for students, added 2 more mentors for 2005 and really gave a big foundation.

Most of the new teams probably go through what our team did, maybe even longer than 2 years if their mentors and teams don't have a background in FIRST.

On our message boards on the website the second week of the year we reminded our team that we are a "high school" built team not a Timken or Hamilton Sundstrand (our mentor's companies) built team.

All but one of our mentors really backed off this year, the mentors did come up with the overall design of the robot useing what the students felt the robot needed and then stepped back and let the students go to work.

It's only to the benefit of teams to let students do the work after a team forms that foundation, if you look at Team MAX over the past two years when were "mentor built" compared to this year when it was "student built" the results are so much different at the compeition and the students have a much more fun time I think, especially because once we're out of qualifing and into elmination rounds the only people who touch that robot on the field area is the drive team and 2 student pit crew members.

Last edited by nobrakes8 : 04-04-2005 at 22:56.
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Unread 05-04-2005, 00:40
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

As I read through posts like this, one thing is clear, this is an issue that can never be resolved. Some people think the other teams are doing it all wrong and their way is how all the other teams should do it. That’s funny, considering the odds of everyone on their own team agreeing on everything is pretty slim.
If every team was the same and worked the same way, then all the robots would be the same. What fun would that be? One of the best things about this program is seeing all the different solutions to the same problem.
While some mentors may not “get it”, don’t make assumptions. Your mentors are volunteers. FIRST is generating millions of dollars of FREE professional guidance, technical expertise and technology to share with you. Show me one program other than FIRST that is capable of making that happen without charging you thousands of dollars. If you have a problem with your mentors “getting too involved“, try to work things out. If you have a problem with another teams mentors, you’re focusing your energy in the wrong direction. Change the things you can, don’t worry about the things you can’t, and be wise enough to know the difference.

Good Luck and Best Wishes To All
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Unread 05-04-2005, 23:11
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

In all truth, I feel that my team has more of an edge on teams that have an engineer to completly build their robot because we don't think inside the box. You cannot be limited if you don't know what they are. This year the only things the students didn't do was weld the chassis and a base plate. We still managed to make it to the semi's. My team has absolutly zero engineers. The students are the engineers, the builders, and the soul of the team. At the Lone Star Regional I talked with a judge who had been with FIRST since the beginning and she said that the first year one team had a robot completly done by engineers. All it could do on the field was break-down the entire competition. I personally think that FIRST designs it's competitions to put everyone on as equal a footing as possible. So, to all the teams who have loads of engineers and picture perfect robots.... I say bring'em on. Victory comes to those who deserve it.
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Last edited by Argoth : 05-04-2005 at 23:23.
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Unread 05-04-2005, 23:23
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

He's right, we've got 0 engineers. We have one man, his father, that helped us all season. He's not an engineer, he's just trying to help us out. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade him for an engineer any day, I'd much rather have Papa Page.

There were so many teams at the LSR that looked like their engineers/mentors did everything for them. Half of them couldn't explain their own robot, and that's sad. A mentor's role is to do that, to mentor, to help out the students, not to do the work for them. If you have the resources to get engineers and mentors, then you should also have the resources to build the robot yourself, not let your mentors do it all.

No matter what rank they finish at, I'll always have more respect for the teams who work hard on their own. Those who can be seen in the pits struggling to make repairs, those who look hurt when their robot loses, and those who are elated when their robot wins. It's those students, the ones without an engineer-built robot, that define FIRST, and what FIRST is all about.
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Unread 14-04-2005, 07:31
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

the way that it seems to be is that adult built robots are just stealing awards from the other teams.
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Unread 19-04-2005, 12:20
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

team 1596's bot is built and maintained MOSTLY by students.. we have some engineers and adults helping us and such.. but . . for instance.. 95% of our arm was designed by a student jon tribanal.. and a lot of students worked on it..

from the start we heard about student built bots and adult built bots.. and at our first meeting we said. . .this is going to be a STUDENT bot.. i think more teams ought to have that kind of philosophy in my opinion
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Unread 19-04-2005, 18:05
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Ok, I've read this whole thread, and I've been thinking about this for awhile because there's a mentor on my team who thinks the robot should be 100% student designed and built, so here are the thoughts that I've been playing with in my head for some time now....

Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but I have one question for all of you advocating "student designed and built" bots. Did you use this year's kit chassis and transmissions? If so, you used something designed by engineers and built by professionals, likely with no student input. How is that any better than an engineer designing a chassis, probably with more student help than the kit chassis, and helping the students build it?

How about those of you that come to Cheif Delphi and read the whitepapers and use the designs you see, even if you do make modifications? I could even go as far as to say that looking at other "powerhouse" robots and using their ideas/designs is the same way. Guess What? An engineer came up with something that is on your robot.

Even if you brag that you have no engineering support, or that your robot is 100% student designed and built, the fact is that unless you totally started from scratch, it's not.


Now onto my old team....

I'm speaking for Team 33 on this one, because 1504 doesn't have any engineers yet (but we rely on other team's engineers and ideas). Every year, the Killer Bees turn out beautiful and highly competitive robots. Guess what....their robots are built almost entirely by students. Emphasis on almost. How could you expect a high school student to spend hours calculating gear ratios, torque curves, and anything else like that? Granted, some can and do, and that's great, but I'd say that's the exception, not the rule. What about the material thickness required, or complex machined parts? Most high school students join the team to build something really cool, not sit at a desk for hours doing math.

The first time I saw Jim's drawings for the four speed transmission, I was in awe. I thought "I wish I could have thought of that!" Would I have thought of it? Not a chance. Is it bad that he designed it? I don't see how it would be.

I like to classify 33 as a 50/50 team, where engineers and students work in a partnership to build great robots. In my eyes, this is what FIRST is all about, working WITH professional engineers to build the best possible robot. This is how I was "brought up" in FIRST, it's how I was inspired, and it's how I will strive to conduct any team that I am on in the future, including 1504. Do I believe that engineers should do the work for the students? Absolutely not, but I also believe that teams with no engineering support are at a disadvantage, and that's where this turns into a robot building contest. How can students be inspired to pursue careers in science and technology when they don't interact with anyone in those fields?
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Last edited by Paul H : 19-04-2005 at 18:08.
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Unread 19-04-2005, 18:15
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
Not to sound like a jerk or anything, but I have one question for all of you advocating "student designed and built" bots. Did you use this year's kit chassis and transmissions? If so, you used something designed by engineers and built by professionals, likely with no student input. How is that any better than an engineer designing a chassis, probably with more student help than the kit chassis, and helping the students build it?
There is nothing wrong with using engineer built and designed parts, I completely understand that somethings are out of the range of what a student can do. What I say when it comes to being a student designed and built robot is more of a harmony between engineers, mentors, and students. There is nothing wrong with mentors helping students build a robot, but when they take over the process and students get left out, that is when I think there is a problem. All of our robots have had engineer built parts, thats fine, what is nice is that the engineer showed us how and why their part works.

What I have been trying to state is that collaboration is fine, but domination is not. I understand that nothing is truly 100% student built, thats fine. The point of this post, and the thread as a whole is really trying to build an understanding between mentors and students that working together is fine, but when the mentors take over, students should ask themselves how much are they really getting out of FIRST when all they get to do is drive their robot.
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Unread 19-04-2005, 22:50
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

When I first joined FIRST, I was bothered that it seemed some robots were engineer built blah blah blah...

I got over that. It gives the other teams something to strive for. AND who am I to judge how each team should best inspire THIER students. We all come from different backgrounds. My students KNOW about mills, lathes, water jet cutters, etc... but might never have touched a tool in their lives. Other students may have helped fix the house or rebuilt a car, but never knew that math could help build something, or that you can use WATER to cut METAL. (How cool is that...) It's all good.

But I do wonder about a team when I see 3 engineers fixing a broken robot in the pits with NO (zero) students even in range. How can that be good? (I'm serious - is that good? A working, dominating robot makes the team feel good or what?)
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