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Unread 03-05-2005, 12:48
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not2B
But I do wonder about a team when I see 3 engineers fixing a broken robot in the pits with NO (zero) students even in range. How can that be good? (I'm serious - is that good? A working, dominating robot makes the team feel good or what?)
See this goes against what you said earlier... about judging how their students are inspired. And this is one brief second that you see a team in their pits. I can remember a handful or more times where this was the case in our pits. In general, it was the mentors just testing something out, or tweaking something. Why, do you ask, were there no students in range?? Well, lets see, our starving drive team was off getting food, half our kids were scouting, others were off getting buttons or checking out other teams... etc etc... sometimes, the mentors step in to let the kids go have fun. The competition is about MUCH more than just the robot. If kids are glued to the robot all of the time, then they miss the rest of it... the other fun stuff, what makes FIRST, FIRST.

And to back up the argument, there are a lot of very tiny teams, and with resources spread thin, sometimes its up to the mentors to make the tweaks.

That said, I remember all the important stuff being done by our students... I dont think a single mentor could tell you how the transmission was assembled, but two of our students could! When we had emergency drive train changes, tightening of the chains, changing of axles, the mentors threw up their hands and claimed ignorance as our students took over.

(This is general now, not to Not2B)
Complain if there is a mentor on your team who bullies you out of the way, complain if a mentor on another team is mean to you, but dont judge how other teams work by what you see in the pits, or what you "hear" from other teams. With anticipation high, struggles for recognition, different views on inspiration, there are a lot of accusations and assumptions. But teams that keep coming back are the ones that are actually inspiring students... so teams that are still around are doing something right.. regardless of student or mentor built bots.
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Unread 03-05-2005, 13:50
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

I see I struck a nerve... and I do admit my question was loaded. Sorry about that. And of course the little teams can use all the help they can get. I don't count chain tightening, battery changes, screw tightening, and general maintenance as working on the robot. And for the record, I would never, and have never, judged a team on a few minute glance in the pits. That's not very informed. (Explain later)

I guess in a round about way, you answered my question. For many teams, having a highly tuned, very nice robot IS inspiring. I guess I'm trying to understand it all. The mentors on our team are there to give advice, act as a sounding board for ideas, lend a hand if asked, and help guide the students on the right path when they know what end result they want, but don't know the direction. As a result, sometimes they make mistakes. We try to help them understand what went wrong, how it's not the end of the world, how to correct it, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Here is why I'm in conflict - we had a very good year (by our standards). And the students are more energetic and "inspired" than ever before. Would a REALLY good robot (without the rookie mistakes, etc...) be even better (more inspiring)? Or are they inspired because of what they were able to do on their own, with the little pit stops of disaster (and learning) along the way? My team has answered this for me (let them do it, they don't mind the mistakes.) But it's still something I think about.

.... oh yes. The team that was doing work with no students?! I've been watching a handful (I have 6 on my list) of different style teams for the last 4 years - to try and benchmark our own team. I realize that sometimes mentors can't help themselves, or the students are busy working on something else. But when it's consistent over a 4 year span, at regionals and championships, with a large team, then I have to ask - Is that a good thing? Maybe it is, I don't know. And just so you don't think I'm down on the fancy teams, several of the teams that I initially thought were "too good to be true" or "too mentor dominated" turn out to be really well run, and really inspiring. This is based on talking to mentors, parents, and students as well as years of observations. NOT a few seconds in the pits. That would be silly.
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Unread 03-05-2005, 22:10
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Our team is one of the 50/50 teams, and it has worked very well. I admit that things may be different on a large team, or different on any team for that matter, but our mentors and students work well together. The frame was designed, cut and welded by engineers and sponsors. The robot was designed in general by the team including students and mentors. Students did prototyping with mentor advice.

Even a team that has more mentors than students may have students running a part of the team that nobody sees, and the same thing goes the other way. I am a student. I come up with ideas, run weight checks, design the scouting sheet, and scout. Mentors help and finalize. This is behind the scenes. In the machine shop, one of our sponsors who is also a mentor does all the major cutting and shaving jobs, partly because no student knows how to do it.

What I am saying is, don't judge a team by the visible proportion of mentors to students. Don't jump to conclusions. Better yet, respect the team for being what they are. Every team has a different way of doing things, and who are we to judge them for it?
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Unread 04-05-2005, 14:33
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

yea..i definately saw some pits with only adults in the pits working on the robot.. . not a student to be seen.. .but . . you know .. theirs nothing we can really do about that..

and i am also insulted by the post regarding the 3 teems at GTR. . they are awsome teams and i personally have visited their pits.. they are not a 100% student team, but far from mentor only. . . and FESSTRONICS was an AWSOME alliance (at GTR) we were glad to have them! and 1114 did a good job!. . i dont remember 1503
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Unread 04-05-2005, 16:41
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

I like how #340 is run:

The students design and build the robot, where the mentors listen and keep things under control. They help guide were they are needed, but generally stay hands off. In the pits, a scout from another team would come up to a mentor watching the pit and say "hi, can I ask you some questions?" The mentor would say "I do not know anything, go ask one of them," pointing to the mass of students working on the robot.

I love it. It gives the students on the team such an opportunity to learn by hands on. They learn how things work and are made.

This year is was found that we made a more complicated robot then we needed to. However, now we say "if the kids want to build it again, we will."
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Unread 08-01-2009, 14:22
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Smaller and newer teams often need the mentors more than the larger and older teams. My team counts on our mentors a lot but we work on our robot and add our own ideas. My team only has about 5 members and it is only our second year. we really need the help.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 15:55
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Our team has 11 students and about 11 mentors. We share the work pretty equally, actually. The students design things, the mentors tell us if what we've come up with is possible and help us get it done. They step in if we can't do something, but if we can do it on our own, they let us. Still, it's mostly a partnership between kids and adults. I like it this way, especially since we're a rookie team and most of the kids don't know a whole lot yet(me included).

Are any other young teams set up this way?
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Unread 04-04-2005, 18:26
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spikey
This problem has been going on for years, and I wonder what everyone else thinks about this subject of adult involvement.
This is not a problem, it is simply a different way of doing things.

If you don't see students on those teams complaining, why does it bother you how they're inspired?

The end result is the same. Students are inspired. That's all that matters in FIRST.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 19:13
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

I personally look down on Engineer designed and built robots becuase I always wonder: "What do students learn from sitting there and watching someone else o the work for them?" The answer probably is: "Very little, if anything." FIRST is designed to be a learning experience. An engineer has had numerous years of education and learning expeience. The students on the other hand have had very little, if any education in the engineering field. FIRST helps them gain some basic knowledge in the engineering field, such as trial and error, different design characteristics, assembly and manufacturing pocesses (milling), and much more that many of us already know about. When you have an Engineer or any adult member do all the work, it takes away from the students experience.

I'm proud to say to others that 1023 is all student run. A core group of vetern team membvers (4 to be exact) do alot of the decision making. They come up with ideas, such as a list of regionals to attend, and the rest of the team meets and dicusses our options then votes. When we build our robot, we brain storm after kick-off (at our lockin) to come up with ideas to use. Then we vote on an idea and design it using a CAD program (with some help from our lone engineer mentor). After that, we're more or less on our own. We machine 99% of our parts our self, and do 99% of the work on the robot. The only work that is done by an adult is complex machining (like making a spool to wind our belt lift on). After the robot is built, we test it and our mentor is there to give suggestions on how to improve it if we get stuck and need assistance fixing a problem.

We believe that this system works well because we (the students) learn alot during the build season. Its a great hands on experience to build a robot from virtually nothing. It's an even better experience to be at a competition with a Finalist robot and knowing that you labored over it to make it work. You remember all the hard hours of work that you put into it through out the season.

...Just my $0.02
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Last edited by KTorak : 04-04-2005 at 19:21.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 19:18
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KTorak
I look down on Engineer designed and built robots becuase I always say to my self: "What do students learn from sitting there and watching someone else o the work for them?" The answer is: "Very little, if anything."
You are entitled to your own opinion, but who are you to say what a student is learning until you are a student on said team?

Maybe you wouldn't want to be on a team where engineers do more work than students, but that doesn't mean that others feel the same way.
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Unread 05-04-2005, 01:46
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

A perfect post for this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=30
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Unread 05-04-2005, 06:20
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Wow, didn't see a single post in this thread about mentors and the non-engineering aspect of a team... just a question, not meant to insult or inflame, just curious, on the student-led teams, how did you eat during your Regionals? Was one of your students in charge of figuring out where the team would get breakfast, make the bagged lunches, figure out what restaurant could seat you all for dinner? And did you put your hotel reservations on your credit card (to be reimbursed later)? Our team has a large mentor base. I'd love to talk to a team which is more student-based to see how you do it all.
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Unread 05-04-2005, 07:58
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

We have a small Mentor base. This past year we were fortunate to have two Mentors spearhead our fundraising.

To continue with KatheK's line of questioning..... I am also curious on how many students lead their fundraising, set-up presentations at companies, follow-up on promises. Who makes sure the robot makes it to the presentation, cleans up afterwards and makes sure all materials are ready for the next presentation.

This is about more than building a robot, we cannot only do the fun things. If you are fully involved than you will be prepared to do anything in life.
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Unread 05-04-2005, 09:18
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Brockway
We have a small Mentor base. This past year we were fortunate to have two Mentors spearhead our fundraising.

To continue with KatheK's line of questioning..... I am also curious on how many students lead their fundraising, set-up presentations at companies, follow-up on promises. Who makes sure the robot makes it to the presentation, cleans up afterwards and makes sure all materials are ready for the next presentation.

This is about more than building a robot, we cannot only do the fun things. If you are fully involved than you will be prepared to do anything in life.
I am fundraising co-captain. It is my responsibility to make initial contact with a company and set up an appointment. If the robot is needed, the people attending the presentation will load and unload it and set it up. I set up the binders with team information and pictures and such. Of course, I couldn't do this without the help of the mentors/teachers. They drive us down and photocopy things and do all the things the students don't have access to. Seeing as I am in charge of fundraising, it's my responsibility to make sure everything runs smoothly and my responsibility to contact a company, set up an interview and try and raise money!
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Unread 05-04-2005, 09:22
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Re: When do mentors go too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathieK
Wow, didn't see a single post in this thread about mentors and the non-engineering aspect of a team... just a question, not meant to insult or inflame, just curious, on the student-led teams, how did you eat during your Regionals? Was one of your students in charge of figuring out where the team would get breakfast, make the bagged lunches, figure out what restaurant could seat you all for dinner? And did you put your hotel reservations on your credit card (to be reimbursed later)? Our team has a large mentor base. I'd love to talk to a team which is more student-based to see how you do it all.
I think you have a good point. IMHO FIRST is about collaboration between mentors and students. Although, i may not have any right to make this statement but i think a team shouldn't be 100% student-built/led or 100% mentor-built/led. Students love to build robots, and i also know that they love to get guiudance from their mentors. Its about finding the best balance. However, its important for all of us to understand where some of these posts are comming from. Sometimes i have myself seen mentors scouting, building, strategizing and even moving(to/from matches) the robot!. This is disapointing for me, either the team's students dont care or they are not allowed to. Both of which are unacceptable in FIRST. If any team has a situation like this the best way is to communicate. All mentors are selfless, they take their precious time away form home/daily routine to come and help the students. If the students talk to them and explain their dilema they will co-operate.

Just my $0.02
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