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#1
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
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That's the thing I think people have problems with, the whole "engineers with toys" portion of it. The engineers don't have to be greedy or power hungry, just a little to excited to inspire. Is this analogy true, I don't know, I'm only part of one team so far. But I can see where these people are coming from. |
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#2
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
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Also, not to inflame or sound cocky, but quite a bit yes. Our team has an extremely small mentor base, only three of them, and, though we obviously do not charge a several thousand dollar amount onto our own personal credit card, we do take care of the hotel arrangements on our own (using a very trusting mentor's credit card), as well as some food. However, we do not make seating reservations at large resturants, nor drive ourselves to the competitions. Our mentors are wonderful to us, and our team is very grateful for their support, but our team, and I'm sure many others, get along fine with more responsibilties placed upon them. ![]() |
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#3
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
I believe what Dean may have been saying is that education in and of itself is worthless. There must be some driving force that causes you to DO something with what you have learned, and I think that was what Dean was getting at. As my father always says... "you can have a PhD., but if you don't get your head in the game you'll be digging a ditch with a pretty certificate. " I don't think Dean was knocking the educational experience of FIRST at all, just taking another view of it. But, I guess the only way to truly know the answer to that is to ask the man himself.
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#4
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
In my opinion FIRST is about creating relations between students with adults and the only way this can happen is if they work together and learn from each other. Now if only the mentors work on the bot and there is no comunication with the students then that relation is being lost.
I am very proud to say that in my team, we students do all the work and our mentors just sit back and relax. During the building season they give us their thoughts and they help us develope ours, but we design and we built. At the competition mentors are the ones who actually don't touch the bot, once in a while they'll give us an advise or correct us but always letting us fix it or improve it. |
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#5
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
Being a geek of 40+ years, I have always had difficulting respecting and enjoying the company of 'teens' and seeing them as important individuals. I allowed differences in taste such as music, hairstyles, clothing, language, etc. to create this really big generation gap between myself and teens.
However, a few years ago I began teaching a group of junior/high school students how to program computer games. Additionally, during the past two years I have learned to work with teens in robotics. Consequently, in my personal life, FIRST and common technology interests have served as bridge between myself and teens. Now I enjoy their company and look forward to working with them. FIRST has provided me with a 'new language' to communicate with high school students. Because of this common language and regained confidence in young people, I can trust them to take on significant robotic tasks (electrical and mechanical design and wiring, programming, strategy) successfully so I can sit back and be as passive as possible during the robotic six-week build phase and competitions. I am available when they have questions and I interject when necessary to keep things moving along safely and smoothly. Its neatto see all the inspiration and education that results from FIRST robotics...benefiting students and mentors. High school students today really rock! I am proud to work with such wonderful people. Regards, Chuck |
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#6
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
I think all too often a team is heavily mentor run for the wrong reasons. Are you taking too much initiative because you want to see your team perform well at competition, or because you honestly believe it is more beneficial to your students to watch you work on the bot?
As everyone is so quick to point out, FIRST is about inspiration and learning, not winning. Our robot was absolutely terrible last year. Far more than half of our matches were spent helplessly watching the bot sit in the starting position. Did I still learn a lot? Yes. If anything I was more inspired to learn more about engineering by watching a terrible bot than I would be watching one do well. In my opinion, it is far more beneficial to the students to be 100% responsible for every aspect of the team, with adults merely present to make sure discipline is enforced, and offer advice when asked. Last edited by White_Orpheus : 07-04-2005 at 20:25. Reason: typo |
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#7
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
My sincere apologies to 1114, 1503, 1680 for my judgments of your collaboration and the teams at FLR. It was unfair for me to accuse your team of being inspirational or judge the quality of your 6 week build based on based on conjecture and rumor.
I learned a lot from this thread. Such as the difference between being educational and inspirational and the balance between mentor and student involvement. I didn't know such issues have been debated again and again at cd. However, I learned the most important lesson of all, I learned that I should think before I post anything potentially offensive toward another person. Again, my sincere apologies. Kevin Cheng Team 639 |
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#8
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
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As others have pointed out, part of the reason I do this is because it IS fun. I enjoy it. I also enjoy Autocross racing. I could be spending this time making my car faster. SO why do I throw myself so heavily into FIRST? Because I truly believe this is our best chance to change our society. To directly address what White_Orpheus said above; I am not in this to inspire the students on my team. There are 10s of thousands of students who are exposed to FIRST each year. We can best inspire all of them by each of us doing the very best we can to increase the excellence of each FIRST event. Our best chance at influencing 100s of thousands is to get a mass audience. To do that we need the competition to be so awe inspiring that even people who are not involved will want to watch. My personal goal will always be to contribute to the excellence of each event. I think that is the best shot at inspiring the most people. Matt B. |
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#9
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
Wow! This discussion has evolved quickly! Just like every other one on this topic.
I'm a big picture kind of guy and I don't like to see people ruin a good thing because they don't like a small part of what they see. Don't trade in the Cadillac just because there is a scratch in the bumper. FIRST is bigger than a handful of teams that some perceive to be in violation of some rule that doesn't exist. I've said this before in an unrelated post and figured it fit in just as well here. Relating to why students (and mentors for that matter) get involved in FIRST... Whatever the "reason" for their wanting to be a part of something really cool, it's their reason and just as valid as anyone elses. Who are we (any of us involved in FIRST) to judge another team/robot/approach to FIRST? I take pride in the way our team operates and I fully understand the philosophy behind FIRST. And I certainly don't belittle other teams because they don't share the same operational philosophy that I do. I will admit that when I was new to the world of FIRST I had some skepticism toward teams that are driven more by mentors than by students but I've changed over the years. I get it now. I understand what FIRST is all about. Big picture - kids think engineering and science and math and technology and being an ubergeek is cool! We are succeeding! My thoughts on the notion of FIRST not being an educational enterprise... Being an educator I find it very difficult to not view FIRST as an educational endeavor but that's simply becuase I look at most things in life as educational in some respect. That's my perspective and that's how I operate. You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of the teacher. My life revolves around teaching, sharing experiences and getting kids excited about learning. It's a lifelong process that they need to be prepared for. Different teams. Different philosophies. Different approaches to the anamoly that is FIRST Robotics. If you have a hard time reconciling this simple truth you may want to find something different to do with your time. Bottom line for me - I do this FIRST thing because it's fun. When I'm no longer having fun doing it (can't imagine that!) I'll find something else fun to do. Best of luck to ALL teams no matter how you operate. You all deserve it! My one cent (the other is paying for expensive gas!) Sean |
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#10
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Still running the 2.8L?It has been my experience, in being on a FIRST team and in mentoring a FIRST team, that the kids on the team seem to get more out of it when they get to build and design the robot. Maybe that was just the group of kids we had this year, though, this being the rookie year of the team I helped to found and mentor. While we mentors took care of most of the planning of the meetings and getting registration done and organized and planning many of the fundraisers and such, the students got to design and build the robot how they wanted, and it was really cool to not only see them do that, but to see them when we were in our first match at our regional and it all worked. That was really cool. It has also been very cool for us seeing the students get more involved in running the team, when they won the Rookie All Star award and qualified for Nationals, they did some serious brainstorming to try and come up with ways to raise the money so that they could go. Originally I was sure that the best FIRST team was one that the students got to design and build the robot. Now, I'm not so sure that there is a best format for a FIRST team. Students designing and building it seems to work well for some teams, and engineers desiging and building it seems to work well for others. In high school, I was on a team where the robot was, for the most part, designed and built for us. And while I would've liked to have had a more active role in it, I had a lot of fun and it pbviously impacted me a great deal, as I decided to help to start and mentor a FIRST team. Yes, this team is being run differently than the one I was on in high school. But it seems we're having the same effect on the students, inspiring them to learn and to have fun while doing it. As long as that continues, I see no reason to complain about doing it either way. As Sean said, when it stops being fun, then there's a real problem to address. But until then, I'll be right here continuing to mentor and participate in FIRST. |
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#11
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
An ex-mentor turned FIRST judge told me that, during a pre-regional judges meeting, FIRST told the judging staff that they were going to hear a whole lot of "our robot is 100% student built" as they made their rounds. This was followed by a directive that this does not matter and should not play into a team deserving any awards over a team that was 100% engineer built. He was surprised to hear that from FIRST and so was I when he told me about it.
Our team is in a constant state of change. 5 years ago when I first became my team's coach, we had a very overpowering mentor that designed, built, and programmed the robot. Our team more or less revolted against this and we had to make a really tough decision to get away from utilizing his knowledge and skills at all. For two years after that, we had students who were all of knowledgeable enough, interested enough, and capable enough that they could do everything themselves. All the while, we had a couple of underclassmen joining our "club" not team (see THIS THREAD) who were maybe into electrical and programming more than using tools and machining equipment. Today, these students are upperclassmen who require our mentor staff to do the majority of the build, at least the mast/arm portion of our machine, and then they (students) wire and program. Incidentally, we have some current Freshmen who are incredibly motivated and apt enough with tools and ready to take things over so we are planning now for a more student-built machine in the coming seasons. It's a constant evolution and whichever state we're in during any given season, the students who are in FIRST for the right reasons still take away knowledge, experience, and a desire to pursue engineering. Basically, it just doesn't matter. |
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#12
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
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#13
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
Sometimes the mentors, and I'm talking in general, do seem to dominate over the teams. On the other hand, since it is only at the regionals where we witness what is going on with the individual teams, we can only assume somethings. but, I do agree, some teams seem to be powered by their mentors and/or sponsors. If I was to say how much that is unfair, I might get yelled at but, to the other teams, it is not fair. To be rational, you can use the machines at the place where you build but, there is an extent of whether or not the mentors should step in or just let the team itself work on the problem and try to correct it. I do recall seeing some teams where the robot looked a little too good to be made by majority students with some of the mentors helping. But, then again, that team could just be really advanced and be really good at what they do. Unless you are there the entire season with the team, you can't be entirely sure or unsure what goes on but, some teams don't seem to have a limit to where the mentors need to stop helping.
::Just my opinion:: |
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#14
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
There is another side to the “When do mentors go too far?” coin. Please read the following excerpt that I Googled and copy pasted here. Names have been changed so as not to embarrass this teacher, who IMO, is a much more common example of a mentor that has gone too far.
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#15
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Re: When do mentors go too far?
Dear students,
I didn't go back to the beginning of this thread, but did re-read the postings from the past few days and I totally agree with what you all have to say about mentor over-involvement. But....at the same time, it is also your responsibility to really talk to your mentors and PUSH THEM OUT OF THE WAY (not literally....) In the corporate world, the leadership roles go to those employees who positively ASK FOR THE JOB. If you sit back and do nothing, the mentors will take over. But, if you step up to the plate, almost any mentor should (and must) back-away and let you succeed or fail on your own. Carpe Diem....go for it! Especially in the off-season. |
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