YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by BandChick

Granted, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to mine. I don't think the red tetra should count because, even though blue pushed, it is REDS fault for not being strong/fast enough to push back, or move away at the end. It is NOT blue's fault, but rather a weaker robot. Yes, it is hard to make a competitive robot, but that's the point of FIRST. You win some, you lose some.

Redabot obviously wasn't fabricated well enough, wasn't strong enough, wasn't fast enough or didn't have a quick-enough thinking drive team. How is that blue's fault when all they did was try to defend the center goal?

If you were to steal candy from a baby, would it be the baby's fault for not having a good enough grip to hold on?

This isn't a case of playing defense and preventing them from scoring. This is a case of using their robot to descore their tetras. The rules don't cover this as written, but they clearly should. Defense shouldn't be able to take away 30 points in a matter of 5 seconds.
If their robot is so weak, then push them away every time they go near a goal. Having a weak robot should earn you less points, not earn you more then have them taken away.

Edit:I'd also like to make a slight note about the rule I suggested before. It's not meant to apply when defense is being played on a bot trying to score, as Team Update #18 explained. Contact on a robot while they're trying to score is all fine and dandy, but once that tetra falls on and the bot backs away...move on.

According to team update #18, you're responsible if one of the scoring team knocks off one of their own tetras while being pushed by you. I feel that results of legitimate goalline defense should never be penalized.

[BandChick]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

According to team update #18, you're responsible if one of the scoring team knocks off one of their own tetras while being pushed by you. I feel that results of legitimate goalline defense should never be penalized.

Okay, I'm going to say it like this. Update #18, answers a Q&A that MY advisor posted. That same situation happened to us (1089) at the NJ Regional. Yeah, we lost the match because of penalty points that we didn't deserve. It almost happened twice. I'm not bitter, in fact, I'm glad that my advisor asked so that teams in the future DONT go through that. The fact of the matter is, pushing someone to FORCE them to de-score is wrong (and by this I mean the opposing team has NO control over their own robot). Pushing someone and making them de-score because aren't strong enough to stop you? Not wrong.

Yeah, it sucks that you lost the match because you were touching your tetra, but you know what, it happens. At Jersey our robot got stuck in the center goal. We were touching 2 or 3 tetras. We lost the match. Why? We got pushed into the goal and couldn't get ourselves out by the end. Who's fault is that?

Our team's. Getting stuck was unfortunate but it was because of the team's failure to build a robot that didn't have that problem. Sure, we've done what we can to alleviate the problem in the future, but it doesn't matter. The point is. We lost and it was our fault.

I think the same thing applies to this situation.

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by BandChick

The fact of the matter is, pushing someone to FORCE them to de-score is wrong (and by this I mean the opposing team has NO control over their own robot). Pushing someone and making them de-score because aren't strong enough to stop you? Not wrong.

If you're overpowering their robot to the point where they can't control where they're going, what's the difference?

I agree that if you're too weak to fight back, there's nothing wrong with them pushing you around. But using their robot as a tool to do an action that would normally get you penalized, and is in no way part of proper game play...that's not the way the game is meant to be played, and certainly not GP.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

Pushing a team onto one of it's stacks is a single maneuver that can swing the score of a game massively. It does this without the team gaining the advantage even touching a tetra. That's quite possibly the most aggressive defense possible. We clearly don't want teams to win through such methods.

Then "we" should counterract such maneuvers by using our drivetrains to push back. If my drivetrain is too weak to counter a legal pushing maneuver, if I do not wish to run the risk of touching my tetra stacks at the end of a match, then I will keep my robot as far away from my stacked tetras as possible. If I am an offensive juggernaut and am trying to pop that last tetra on a goal, I will be even more wary of a defensive team who knows how to use their arm to block tetra capping. If they use their arm to pin mine up against my stacked tetras when time runs out.....oops!

As long as the pushing team isn't using the goal to rip me to pieces or isn't ramming me from 15 feet away, I'm fine with this rule interpretation.

One thing I've noticed in this thread is the use of so many different words to describe defense - some are more severe than others - push, ram, bump, force, etc. I think a lot of the confusion present in these discussions is a result of using so many different words with different connotations in the rules, related Q/A's, and "why did we do that" explanations in team updates. "Pushing" is used liberally in Team Update #18, but then we see the word "ram" show up in the "why we did that" explanation. That is very confusing. We've got to become more consistent using these words across the board.

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

Then "we" should counterract such maneuvers by using our drivetrains to push back. If my drivetrain is too weak to counter a legal pushing maneuver, if I do not wish to run the risk of touching my tetra stacks at the end of a match, then I will keep my robot as far away from my stacked tetras as possible.

According to Team Update #18 this isn't a legal pushing maneuver against a robot that's trying to cap. Why would it be legal against one that's not?

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

If I am an offensive juggernaut and am trying to pop that last tetra on a goal, I will be even more wary of a defensive team who knows how to use their arm to block tetra capping. If they use their arm to pin mine up against my stacked tetras when time runs out.....oops!

I feel that blocking tetra capping is the way to play defense. If something like a descoring happens during legal blocking, no one should be penalized. I don't like that update 18 makes it dangerous to attempt to stop a robot as they cap...That's a big blow against the 'right kind' of defense. But if they intentionally are moving your arm to make you descore, that's improper.

That is, Triple Play is clearly not supposed to consist of any intentional tetra descoring. The game is about putting tetras on, not taking them off. They've said this a number of times, and the legality of this maneuver doesn't help reach that goal. Rather than what I suggested earlier of putting the blame for the descore on the pushing robot, it'd be much more appropriate to not descore a tetra solely for being touched by a robot of the same alliance, once that tetra has been properly stacked and the stacking robot has backed away.