Should Sponsors ask to be recognized?

[Joe Johnson]

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.

Example #1:
I am sure that Radio Shack is of 2 minds. I think that they probably support the general idea of folks in their main market getting inspired to go into science and technology careers. BUT... ... I am also confident that they think that selling VEX stuff is likely to make them more money in the long run.

Example #2:
Bob and Tony from IFI are great guys. They put in tons of work for Team 148 before deciding to try to make the Victor 883. Making the Victor 883 was good for FIRST, but the profits they made from FIRST teams essentially jump started their company. A company that I suppose has well over 10 million dollars (US) in annual sales (much of it outside of FIRST to be sure).

Example #3:
Andy Baker and Mark Coors are awesome individuals. AndyMark provides great stuff to FIRST teams as a supplier to the kit and as a maker of COTS parts for FIRST robots. Here is a secret. AndyMark is not a charitable institution. They make money from FIRST teams (Zounds!)

Future Example #(N+1):
Robotic Amusements, Inc. will make products that (I hope) FIRST participants will love to use. While they are not target customers, the demographics of FIRST participants is almost a perfect image of our target end users. If we are successful, sponsoring FIRST teams, regionals, and championships Robotic Amusements, Inc. will not be charity but just plain good marketing.

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.

Is it your position that FIRST should turn away support from these folks because the money is somehow tainted?

From my point of view, these examples are examples to try to duplicate not denegrate.

Think about it, I have never heard a single NCAA basketball team complain that they qualified for the NCAA tourney but could not go because hotels, travel, etc. were going to cost too much. Know why? Because Corp. America has found it in their interest to pay the travel bills for the teams (and then some).

they would likely not be involved if they were not gaining profit in some way. I don't know how else to say this... but in every way it seems wrong.

I look forward to the day when Nike, McDonalds and Coke are paying big bucks to have their logo on every T-shirt at the Championships because it probably means that they are paying the bills for us to inspire kids.

Joe J.

[Collmandoman]

I dunno.. gah I guess I'm just frustrated at macroeconomics...

Example #3:
Andy Baker and Mark Coors are awesome individuals. AndyMark provides great stuff to FIRST teams as a supplier to the kit and as a maker of COTS parts for FIRST robots. Here is a secret. AndyMark is not a charitable institution. They make money from FIRST teams (Zounds!)

I don't mean this rude... If I were in a large company and I saw FIRST.. I would give everything free.. or if I was in a small one-- everything would be at cost . If everyone did this.. the kit would be less.. and thus every year you wouldn't pay 6k.. which would enable more students to be inspired(because more team would be able to go). I know this is hard for small companies, and I understand why they have to do this. I think FIRST should target only the very large companies that understand the ideas of FIRST and give everything at cost, or donate(I know several already do). A free kit would be nice.. and maybe it's on the FIRST horizon. Or maybe I'm a fool

[Bill Moore]

These posts describe sponsors as some entity separate from the team, but I don't think that is appropriate in many cases. When you have a major donor, that corporation becomes more of a "silent partner" than a detached sponsor. Donors not only provide some funding for teams, but also space for building the robot, machine shops to fabricate parts, and networks of engineers and mentors to train and guide the students. They are not detached in any sense of the term.

We would be insulting a partner who contributed so much to the success of the program (regardless of the robot's record), if we failed to make note of their contribution by recognizing them in some manner. Our FIRST program is only 6 years old, but our engineering program for high school students is over 30 years old. The first 24+ years the company didn't have a robot to put its' name on, but the company still supported the ideals that FIRST is trying to bring into the culture.

[Jack Jones]

"Certainly, he can present a bill for such services. After all, we're not Communists. But he must let us draw the water from the well." - "The Godfather" - Barzini to the other Dons

[Daniel Brim]

Well, first of all, I think sponsors should be recognized. Here's why.

Sponsors are responsible for your FIRST experience. Without them there would be no robot. You would not be in this wonderful program (I think we can all agree with that). Without being in this program, you wouldn't have a chance to be inspired daily by the likes of Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, Dave Lavery, JVN, Karthik Kanagasabapathy, Andy Baker, and all people like that. Without FIRST, you probably wouldn't know who these people are. Without FIRST, your life might not change the way it is now.

Following that chain (which I hope is logical), sponsors lead to life-changing. So, you owe them. You wouldn't know about FIRST, so what's a little sticker on the robot going to do?

[Collmandoman]

the name of this thread shoudl be changed-- whoever created it~ to something like "Should Sponsors ask to be recognized" ~ the current topic.. is slightly...well.. awfully misleading and doesn't cover what is being discussed

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

the name of this thread shoudl be changed-- whoever created it~ to something like "Should Sponsors ask to be recognized" ~ the current topic.. is slightly...well.. awfully misleading and doesn't cover what is being discussed

Typically, thread names are not changed to fit the top they have shifted to discussing. If anything, another thread is created.

I think sponsers should be recognized, period. Do I think it should be required? Yes, because without sponsors, none of us would be here. Period. I don't think there's an underlying meaning in any of it - it's just the righteous, polite thing to do. If someone does something for you, you thank them. Thinking about hidden motives and underlying meaning in all of it is pointless. Sponsors help FIRST teams, and in turn, FIRST teams help out sponsors by getting the sponsor's name out, and in many team's cases, actually end up working for their major sponsor.

[Collmandoman]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

Typically, thread names are not changed to fit the top they have shifted to discussing. If anything, another thread is created.

I think sponsers should be recognized, period. Do I think it should be required? Yes, because without sponsors, none of us would be here. Period. I don't think there's an underlying meaning in any of it - it's just the righteous, polite thing to do. If someone does something for you, you thank them. Thinking about hidden motives and underlying meaning in all of it is pointless. Sponsors help FIRST teams, and in turn, FIRST teams help out sponsors by getting the sponsor's name out, and in many team's cases, actually end up working for their major sponsor.

That's the whole thing... this post was moved.. and given an entirely incorrect name.. it seems only lavery has posted anything that hits the question~
Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~

[Greg McCoy]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~

Heck yes...corporate sponsors are giving away their resources which could be applied directly to their business. The least we can do is comply with a request to increase their visibility to the public.

[Chris Fultz]

OK, been thinking on this one for awhile, and I cannot hold back any more.

This may come as a news flash to many of you, but most businesses in the US, and the world, are in business to make money. That is not a bad thing, in fact, it is a very good thing. And, as a business, they are responsible to their owners (shareholders) to spend their money wisely and earn a decent return on it.

Most businesses also have requests from many, many organizations that could use their money to do good things. United Way, Boy Scouts, Shelters, and on and on. So how do they choose where to put their money? Some of it is given purely as a charitable contribution. No strings attached. No recognition expected. A certain portion of annual budgets are set aside for such purposes and are part of being a good community member.

But FIRST is different. FIRST is not a charity. FIRST, for many companies, is an investment in the future. It is a source of engineers and techncians. It is a place to make your company known to some of the brightest stars so that they will want to come and work for you when they get out of school. It is a way for companies to secure their future when the engineering work force continues to shrink. And, if companies do not feel they are getting any value out of their sponsorship (and value can be defined in many ways), then they will find somewhere else to spend their money.

Rolls-Royce is very proud of the teams it sponsors (7), and hopes that the teams are also proud to be a part of the Rolls-Royce family. One way that a team can show that is to advertise our name and have Rolls-Royce announced as a sponsor at the competitions. We greatly appreciate it when they do.


* note: I work for Rolls-Royce, and am part of the committee that determines our support for FIRST teams each year.

[Steve W]

I changed the name of the thread so that some would be happy. Hope that I don't cause any problems with it.

Yeah Sponsors.

[Beth Sweet]

Alright, time for my two cents.

There is a difference between Gracious Professionalism and not thinking. Sponsors are businesses. The point of being in business is to make money. If a sponsor doesn't use intelligent marketing techniques, they will make no money and turn into a 1 year sponsor. Now there is a dilemma.

Obviously businesses need to make money. FIRST provides a fantastic outlet for businesses to do two things: advertise and help out some kids working to make something better out of our future. The sensible thing to do is ask for some sort of advertising for the money they are contributing. Spent elsewhere, that money could buy them anything from a billboard to a commercial on NBC (and yes these numbers are realistic, I was in Advertising 205 last semester so I know pricing for those mediums).

Bottom Line: I believe in science they consider this a mutually beneficial relationship. Why would you expect to get something out of them without providing them with something in return? That seems a bit selfish to me...

[Stephen Kowski]

Should sponsors ask to be recognized? No. They shouldn't have too....do it out of respect.
Should waiters asked to be tipped? No. It is common courtesy.

I hope people don't lose sight that FIRST is a privilege to participate in and not a right.

Do volunteers at the events ask for recognition? Not really, but still it seems people go out of their way to thank them despite it taking an extra effort on their part.

Someone does something nice for me in whatever aspect I am dealing with in my life I am obligated to thank them? No. It is the courteous/right thing to do.

I don't know if I could put this answer in simpler terms. Maybe if I just walk around the championship hitting people with a frying pan would make it clearer, but I am just astounded by this question.

Bottomline: If your sponsor has to ask to be recognized you have already made a huge mistake.

[Daniel Brim]

Another point... we are on Chief Delphi right now (duh). Just look at the name. Chief Delphi is a recognition to the entity that ultimately keeps these forums running. Without their main sponsors, Chief Delphi would not exist. Since Chief Delphi is probably the biggest FIRST resourse there is, we recognize the company that keeps Chief Delphi alive. Without Chief Delphi, we wouldn't have many things... a line to talk with famous FIRSTers, a place to collaborate with thousands of other robotics students, etc. Chief Delphi is one of the reasons that FIRST is so great, and I'm all for recognizing Chief Delphi's sponsors in my everyday speech.

Chief Delphi is great!

-Daniel

[Andy Baker]

14 years ago, Dean Kamen approached many COMPANIES and invited them to get involved with this new thing called U.S.FIRST. He approached, GM, Motorola, Johnson & Johnson, Baxter Healthcare, Boston Scientific, Xerox and many others. He asked them to offer up their best design engineers and enter a contest, partnering them with high school students.

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

I dunno.. gah I guess I'm just frustrated at macroeconomics...

I don't mean this rude... If I were in a large company and I saw FIRST.. I would give everything free.. or if I was in a small one-- everything would be at cost . If everyone did this.. the kit would be less.. and thus every year you wouldn't pay 6k.. which would enable more students to be inspired(because more team would be able to go). I know this is hard for small companies, and I understand why they have to do this. I think FIRST should target only the very large companies that understand the ideas of FIRST and give everything at cost, or donate(I know several already do). A free kit would be nice.. and maybe it's on the FIRST horizon. Or maybe I'm a fool

The next time you are at a competition, look up at the vertical blue banner and see who the "Founding Sponsors" are. They are listed there for a reason. These companies DID give much for free, for many years. Some of these companies have been supporting FIRST even though their stock price stinks and their share holders are frustrated.

In some fairytale world, I can see where companies care less about their bottom lines and give all of their profits to any charity who puts out their hand. But, companies have to make tough decisions in order to stay in business. Sometimes those decisions mean that they cut their sponsorship to a worthwhile organization, or they just try to charge enough to cover their costs. Other times, companies (like the one a friend and I started) are made to HELP FIRST teams while still being somewhat profitable for us.

"a free kit would be nice"... Yes, and I would like a free Porsche parked in my driveway. What makes students in FIRST entitled to handouts?

What I have seen in FIRST is a large group of young, energetic thinkers who actually believe that if they want something, they need to go out and earn it. FIRST is not about handouts. FIRST does not breed young people who think that they are entitled to freebies. At least I sure hope that it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

Does it seem OK to you for sponsors to ask to be recognized? Why or why not~

Yes, is it perfectly OK for a sponsor to ask to be recognized. With any business plan, deal, agreement, or partnership, some sort of "deal" needs to be struck to make the thing work. On the FIRST team I am on, the "deal" is that Delphi sponsors our team while our students and adults do much for the community. This makes Delphi look good. At events, we compete hard and try to do the best we can. This makes Delphi look like a positive sponsor of FIRST. In our pit, we proudly post a Delphi banner. The kids eagerly hang this up. Yep, Delphi corporate sent us this banner, and asked us to display it. It is part of the deal. Our team graciously and proudly agrees to this deal. Also... part of our deal is that our students need to pay (or fundraise) a portion of their costs for the year. This is our way of making the kids take ownership of their participation on the team. They are not getting a free handout. Some kids bust their behinds and work hard on our projects for the community. In the past, these kids have had less to pay to cover their fair share (this is all spelled out in our team handbook on the TechnoKats website).

People who have issues and problems with a corporate presence in FIRST need to learn their history. FIRST would not be here without these supporting corporations, large and small.

(I know I am getting winded, but bear with me here)

I want to close with a little story. Gather around uncle Andy...

In 2000, we decided to host an off-season competition called "IRI". We started small, and had about 21 teams lined up to come. We had a great place and a good date. All things were going well. As we were dealing with the details of this, we realized that we needed to get a field controller package from Innovation First. As you might know, they were a very small company in 1999 and only began their work on field controllers in 2000.

So... I call down to Texas and talk to Tony at IFI. I asked if we could rent one of their field controllers. He said "yes" but did not have a set price for what it would cost for us to rent a complete system. My words to him were this:

"hey... you guys are doing great things. I want you to make some money and do more. How about $500 for the system, and if we break anything, we will cover all costs?"

Tony agreed to this and graciously supported us. He also wanted us to tell FIRST how they were supporting us. I saw no problem in that.

My point is that we loved what they were providing for us FIRST teams. We WANTED them to make money off of us. We WANTED them to succeed and prosper. We WANTED them to get recognition for this so we noted it in our event program. We loved this deal. They helped us succeed. They made money. This is what we call a "win-win".

End of story.

What gets my goat is that people come across and question corporate involvement in FIRST and scoff at the fact that these corporations ask to be recognized. How about a little faith in the current system? I am all for educating people, as long as they listen and show some appreciation for what is good.

ok... man... I feel like I am in Hyde Park, on a soapbox. whew.

Andy B.