YMTC: Bluabot Pushes Red Vision Tetra

[MasonMM]

many of you have said that a tetra only counts as part of your robot during human loading, but it also counts with cases of the autoloader. If a robot has a tetra in its possession and that tetra makes contact with another tetra on the autoloader, then because the held tetra is part of the robot, the robot has made contact with the autoloader tetra while not being in the auto loading zone, and should be addressed a 10 point penalty.

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by Cory

Dave, wouldn't the same be true if a robot is holding a tetra, approaches an autoloader, and subsequently knocks the tetra off the loader before entering the zone?

I believe that would be a penalty for loading from outside of the loading zone. The bot is responsible to control its tetra.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

I believe that would be a penalty for loading from outside of the loading zone. The bot is responsible to control its tetra.

I think it should be obvious to all that a tetra carried by a robot is considered to be part of that robot, except when it's not!

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

I think it should be obvious to all that a tetra carried by a robot is considered to be part of that robot, except when it's not!

Heheh, it sounded funny to be saying, too. But still, it's more of an "isn't part of the robot, except when it is." under the current rulings, then the only exception is loading.

I feel an appropriate way to cover it all is that a tetra loaded on a bot (either by human loading, auto loading, or pickup on the field) is considered part of the robot when determining if the bot is in contact with something (specifically a loader or the field) because the bot is in control of the tetra, and the tetra may under certain conditions may support the bot. This doesn't seem to be true, though, as accordng to Dave, a robot may rest on a tetra outside of the end line, and still earn the 10 point bonus.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by MasonMM

many of you have said that a tetra only counts as part of your robot during human loading, but it also counts with cases of the autoloader.

I still haven't seen the rule that says a tetra is part of the robot when at the autoloading zone, even with the definitions of "robot", etc.

Originally Posted by Goldeye

I feel an appropriate way to cover it all is that a tetra loaded on a bot (either by human loading, auto loading, or pickup on the field) is considered part of the robot when determining if the bot is in contact with something (specifically a loader or the field) because the bot is in control of the tetra, and the tetra may under certain conditions may support the bot. This doesn't seem to be true, though, as accordng to Dave, a robot may rest on a tetra outside of the end line, and still earn the 10 point bonus.

I think the rules regarding this are ok as is, as long as they are called consistently. A tetra merely touching a robot in the endzone is fine. If a robot arm is supported by that tetra, and otherwise would be outside the zone, that's iffy but appears to be within the rules. Going along those lines, I suppose you'd also have to consider when a robot runs out of time trying to cap, and that tetra is touching the stack, currently that should be fine... but what happens if you remove that tetra, is it supporting the arm to keep it from touching the stack? It would take even longer to score if this had to be done, and another judgement call (unless they physically remove the tetra, which might not be possible at the time).
I think it should be the way it is now. Tetra is part of the robot in the case of HP zone. So long as the "robot" as defined, is not touching a stack or outside the endzone or the autoload tetra, it's good.

[Goldeye]

Originally Posted by DarMagi

I have to say the play was smart. Seeing as how the alliance member also looked ahead to determine that their alliance would be in the losing alliance, they simply used the elements that they were granted with on the field, a vision tetra, and used to to their advantage. I say it's clean and fair that they used the tetra to stop possible points, as the vision tetras were also used to stop robots from capping the goals by being pushed in front of their 'bot while the arm was in the process of hanging, so why not be able to use the vision tetra to stop the homezone bonus from being scored?

I'd agree with you if the vision tetra were pushed into the end zone before the bot. Then, there's no question - the robot itself is not over the line, no matter what. However, the tetra isn't the robot. The tetra touching the outside shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

I think the rules regarding this are ok as is, as long as they are called consistently. A tetra merely touching a robot in the endzone is fine. If a robot arm is supported by that tetra, and otherwise would be outside the zone, that's iffy but appears to be within the rules. Going along those lines, I suppose you'd also have to consider when a robot runs out of time trying to cap, and that tetra is touching the stack, currently that should be fine... but what happens if you remove that tetra, is it supporting the arm to keep it from touching the stack? It would take even longer to score if this had to be done, and another judgement call (unless they physically remove the tetra, which might not be possible at the time).
I think it should be the way it is now. Tetra is part of the robot in the case of HP zone. So long as the "robot" as defined, is not touching a stack or outside the endzone or the autoload tetra, it's good.

I agree with you on the first part. Though the rules don't make it all explicitly obvious, as long as the call is consistantly only regarding loading zones (both, or just human, whatever is decided) it's all good.
The reason it's an issue with the autoloading zone is that you may be able to use it to pull a tetra in, or in another manner load it, without being in the loading zone. A safety hazard, for numerous reasons. The most apparent being that the attendant will not load another tetra until you leave the zone. If you never enter, how do they know when you've left? :/ Counting it as a part of the robot or not, the carried tetra hitting the autoloader tetra is a safety hazard, and should be ruled as such.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Goldeye

I agree with you on the first part. Though the rules don't make it all explicitly obvious, as long as the call is consistantly only regarding loading zones (both, or just human, whatever is decided) it's all good.
The reason it's an issue with the autoloading zone is that you may be able to use it to pull a tetra in, or in another manner load it, without being in the loading zone. A safety hazard, for numerous reasons. The most apparent being that the attendant will not load another tetra until you leave the zone. If you never enter, how do they know when you've left? :/ Counting it as a part of the robot or not, the carried tetra hitting the autoloader tetra is a safety hazard, and should be ruled as such.

Well - according to Q/A 1851-1852, you can be touching a stacked tetra with a tetra, and it will still count, as it should. You can be touching a tetra that is outside the endzone line, and still get the bonus points, as it should be. I'm still not sure about "a robot being supported" by a tetra outside the endzone line (where the robot would otherwise be touching outside the endzone), but at this point, seems legal according to the rule as long as the robot itself is not touching outside the line.
If you use a tetra to violate G15, you get penalty. If you remove an oppoents tetra from their autostation, you'll get a penalty (G28). If you descore a stacked tetra from a goal with a tetra in your gripper, it's a penalty (G18-so technically the tetra is part of the robot in this case per the definition of that rule).
So, with that, I'm assuming if we're holding a tetra, and that accidentally knocks off our own auto tetra, it's also a penalty.... I guess technically it should be, but this should be included in the definition of when a tetra is part of the robot. I don't think they were calling these penalties at some regionals, and just picked the tetra up and put it back on the loader (even if it fell inside the field).

[DarMagi]

I have to say the play was smart. Seeing as how the alliance member also looked ahead to determine that their alliance would be in the losing alliance, they simply used the elements that they were granted with on the field, a vision tetra, and used to to their advantage. I say it's clean and fair that they used the tetra to stop possible points, as the vision tetras were also used to stop robots from capping the goals by being pushed in front of their 'bot while the arm was in the process of hanging, so why not be able to use the vision tetra to stop the homezone bonus from being scored?

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Cory

Dave, wouldn't the same be true if a robot is holding a tetra, approaches an autoloader, and subsequently knocks the tetra off the loader before entering the zone?

A reasonable question. The answer from FIRST is "no." It was recently answered on the Q&A system in the following manner:

1852 Section: 4.3.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 4/13/2005
Q: Please identify ANY and ALL cases in which a TETRA is considered and extension of a Robot. Is it ONLY during the HP loading function, or are there other situations this applies?
A: The tetra is considered part of the robot only during the human player loading sequence. This is for safety reasons. However, a tetra being carried by a robot is still the responsibility of the robot in situations such as de-scoring, removing tetras from an opponents automated loading zone, loading zone interference, etc. In these cases, causality will be the determining factor whether to assess a penalty, etc. Please see updated Q&A 1824 as described in Team Update 18, as well as the updated G15 examples in Team Update #20 that will be posted on Thursday, 4/14/2005.