Lessons learned 2005: The negative

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Since all the negatives I have come up with are already here, I will not list any. However, the liquid rules are a HUGE problem.

Cory,

Here is your response in this thread:



I think you are toting the company line a bit too much here. Let me tell you that in order to avoid penalties, you must understand what gets you the penalty in the first place. The definitions of "in the loading zone" and "in the process of receiving a tetra" changed several times this season. They even changed after the regionals were over. They even changed at the driver's meeting at the Championship.

Did you know that at the driver's meeting Benji actually said that a robot could sit in the loading zone and score tetras and if another robot hit them, then it would be a penalty. I was there, I heard it and couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Did you know that a team could sit in the loading zone and not be in the act of loading a tetra (obvious to everyone) and draw a foul from a team obviously going toward a far goal to score? This happened several times at the Championship and changed the way my team played the game. If you don't believe me, look at the tapes of elimination rounds in Detroit where 245 and 217 were on the same team and we went across the field a lot. Then look a the tapes from the Championship where 245 and 217 didn't go across even once due to the fear of penalties. My team's behavior was changed by the "liquid" rules of FIRST and it is my #1 priority to help fix this problem next year.

I see what you're saying here, Paul. I didn't think you would be allowed to score a tetra while in the zone still (How can you score a tetra, if you haven't finished loading it, by FIRST's definition of loading?)

With regards to the second half of your post, Update 15 or whatever it was changed the definition of loading to be "when the robot has left the zone", not when it has finished receiving the tetra from the loader. Personally, I don't like that, and I agree with you that teams received penalties because of it, and that it really wasn't against the spirit of the rule, but it had to be called because that's what the word of the rules said.

[KTorak]

Most have already been said but, these are some negative things I saw.

Penalties: A 30 point penalty is a lot when it was hard enough to score above a 30 in a match. We got a 30 point penalty and lost when we accidently bumped into a robot in the loading zone. It was when we were hit while trying to cap the opposing alliance center goal, and we spun around and non maliciously bumped into the robot there.

Distance to and from Pits: I know it was longer as houston, but it was still a very long walk, especially while dragging a robot with you. Maybe FIRST came find a way to shorten it.

Pit Area in General: I don't think FLL and FRC pits should be in the same building. FLL teams are encouraged to be loud in their pits and scream/shout on the way to their matches, which was distracing in FRC pits while trying to talk to others/work. Don't get me wrong, I thought the South Korean teams drums were cool, but REALLY loud. I also didn't like the Pit Admin announcing. You could not understand a word they said. I also wish you could get sound from the matched in the field. I had to go back and crate our robot during closing ceremonies/finals becuase it took so long to get the crate and I didn't want to miss the Wrap Up party. I was dissappointed I couldn't hear what was going on.

Wrap Up Party: I know FIRST tried their best and it is hard to have a large scale party, but...First, I have to say that the live entertainment was pretty good. The food on the other hand was ok, at best. By time you got to sit down, it was cold. Also, the carnival style attractions were, in my mind, more suitable for younger students andhad ridicuously long lines. A few other team members and I took advantage of the Wrap Up by using the Omni Pool/Hot Tub. Every other night there were 50 or more people there resulting in security kicking them out. When we were there, they stopped by and left..no issues at all.

Ceremonies and Awards: I disliked the way they were ran/given out. I think saving chairmens award for last took away from the winning team becuase the matches were over and people were more interested in going to the Wrap Up Party. Also, inserting awards between finals matches took away from both of them. Opening ceremonies were also lengthy, they shouldn't have caused the matches to become delayed by 30+ minutes.

I do have to say there were some good things. First off, I got my FIRST segway ride...it was awesome. The hotel was (Omni) was pretty nice...I liked having a massive food court near by and being so close to the GWCC and Dome. The pits themselved were also layed out nicely...good walking room and such. Hopefully, FIRST can make some improvements for next year.

Also, how long is the Dome and GWCC contracted by FIRST for use? I heard rumors of one more year, becuase I would honestly like to see it moved to the west...California, Seattle, Salt Lake, or even Arizona would be cool places to hold the competiton. Even michigan would be cool...since we have the most FIRST teams.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by KTorak

Pit Area in General: I don't think FLL and FRC pits should be in the same building. FLL teams are encouraged to be loud in their pits and scream/shout on the way to their matches, which was distracing in FRC pits while trying to talk to others/work. Don't get me wrong, I thought the South Korean teams drums were cool, but REALLY loud. I also didn't like the Pit Admin announcing. You could not understand a word they said. I also wish you could get sound from the matched in the field. I had to go back and crate our robot during closing ceremonies/finals becuase it took so long to get the crate and I didn't want to miss the Wrap Up party. I was dissappointed I couldn't hear what was going on.

If what I heard when I was in the pits was the pit admin, then I heard it fine. Then again, I was always in the pits at off hours.

Perhaps something similar to or improving on 296's Sundial concept is in order. On top of the Pit Admin announcements, those announcements (as well as queueing information, whether the fields are ahead or behind, etc.) would then go up on screens placed around the pit area, say at the end of each aisle. Didn't hear it? Just go check the screen.

The alternative way of doing that would be more Sundialish in nature, and probably is a bit cheaper--put all this information out on a website available over WiFi, then have fewer FIRST-operated displays on the floor (closer to two or three, as opposed to six or seven).

[HydroSam]

As one of the members of the last group of students who actually remember what Championship events at Epcot were like, I think it’s important that a comparison is drawn between what the Championship event used to be and what it has become. For those of you who haven’t been in FIRST long enough to remember the 2002 or prior Championship events, ask an old-timer on your team, they’ll tell you how much better the event was when it was under the Florida sun.

Take the pits-field-stands distances. Once upon a time the pits were so close to the field that robots actually were sent back to the pits between Quarterfinals matches and retrieving something from your pits during a break between the matches wasn’t a 10-minute running ordeal but a two-minute jaunt. Also, instead of being nearly an entire story above and 10 to 200 yards away from the field your robot is on as it competes, in Epcot designated team cheering zones on the floor were established which put students less than 10 feet away from the field and on the same level as the drivers. Those distances seen in Atlanta present serious problems for scouting teams to relay information to their drivers during Qualifying matches or Elimination rounds. In Epcot I can remember my predecessor briefing the drivers on their next match in the elimination rounds by meeting them at the side of the walkway to and from the pits, not needing to wave them down and use dozens of cell phone minutes to arrange a shouted meeting held a few feet above the drivers’ heads.

Another place where the GA Dome facility simply cannot compete with the Disney facility is in the accommodations, transportation, food, and the party. Unlike the Omni, which fills up weeks before the event and forces teams into sub-par hotels far from the event, Disney had plenty of hotel rooms for the teams and punctual transportation systems (busses and monorail) which transported teams from the front of their hotel to the event site. Even as close as the Omni was to the event, that distance is easily double the distance a team had to walk when the event was in Epcot. For food, the prices in the GA Dome have become ridiculous. I know Disney’s not normally associated with inexpensive, but even they didn’t charge $10.75 for a sad-looking BBQ sandwich, a crushed bag of Lays, and a soda. Also, Disney didn’t go ballistic over teams bringing coolers of drinks into their pits to keep their team members properly hydrated over the long days of competition. And for the party, instead of cheesy stilt acts and carnival games, Disney had major recording artists perform at the Einstein field followed by opening the Epcot park with food and multiple sound stages with entertainment aimed at the high-school crowd.

But the most important difference between the days of Epcot events and the stadium-style of event used today was the difference in facility style. Epcot had massive open areas where inter-team activities like twister, limbo, Frisbee, etc. were encouraged. Nearly everyone participated because the fields were just a short walk from anywhere at the event. In stadiums, it’s a hike just to get to the aisle ways (which cannot be blocked by these activities), let alone outside to the nearest open area. Those activities were an important way that teams got to know each other through the most effective way possible: play. Unfortunately, such activities are far less common today and thus, less inter-team understanding and friendships are created.

The pits, also, are not what they once were. It seems that each year the aisles between them shrinks, and this year the aisles were skinnier at the Championship than at some regionals. The pits at Epcot were sufficiently far apart that I remember it being common for entire teams to accompany their robot back to the pits after a successful match to celebrate and coordinate plans for the rest of the day. Today it’d take 15 minutes or more to do something like that and the traffic jam it would create would be astounding.

The layout of the Epcot event also contributed to the more mobile and social feel of the Epcot-based events. Because divisions rotated through fields, teams didn’t colonize sections of the stands and sit there all day. They’d move into the stands for the field their match was soon to be on a few matches ahead of time, watch theirs, then move on to other things (either a celebration in the pits or to one of the outside events). Today teams have incentive to stay in the stands so that they can have reasonably close seating when their robot competes. It’s a lot easier to meet people and learn from others when you’re up and about instead of sitting like a zombie watching matches and talking to the same old members of your team.

What concerns me about FIRST is that they didn’t realize that the venue was as much a part of the problem as anything in Houston and picked a largely similar setup for Atlanta. There was a certain charm about the Championship event’s style in Epcot, a charm that experience now shows cannot be replicated in other places. I think three years is enough to prove that the Championship needs to return to its home: Orlando, FL. Unfortunately, as of next season, there will be even less people in FIRST who remember what the 2002 or prior events were like, and thus even less push to return it to a similar venue.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Ah yes, the fabled Golden Years. I'll admit that the events at Epcot were pretty nice, but they too had their problems. For one, the heat. The events were held in a parking lot, which was the venue's greatest strength and weakness. It was hot outside the expensively air conditioned tents, and it was cramped inside them. Since it was in a parking lot, it was also prone to flooding of all things. You were at the mercy of the weather, and Disney hasn't figured out how to control that yet.

There was virtually no seating for teams at the division fields, and teams most certainly did end up sitting in the stands for long lengths of time. Especially during the Elims. And seating at Einstein was worse than at these new venues. A sea of seats actually below the level of the stage and then stadium seating starting about 200 feet back.

I also remember being charged $70 per person for the wrap party if your team didn't spend the extra cash to stay on Disney property. This would be when my team starting saving money and skipping FIRST packages and wrap parties to stay at cheaper nice hotels and go to Medieval Times or Benihana for our own personal wrap party.

Epcot was far from perfect, and I'm certain setting up an entire stadium with AC and generators in a parking lot cost an awful lot more than renting an actual stadium for the same time period. Plus this way you get AC all the time and don't have to worry about rain. The rainstorm Friday would've been a near disaster at Epcot. Basically, though, Epcot got too expensive, and FIRST moved on.

And don't get me started about people complaing about Houston. You can search out my previous posts on the matter if you're curious about my opinion on the subject.



On a completely other subject, I had an idea to help with rules consistency. BEST robotics typically has a "prototype game kickoff" where the game is presented to the hub directors months before kickoff and is open for comments. This is followed by a prototype day where basic prototype robots are brought to play a simulated game. All of this helps iron out bugs in rules that inevitably pop up when the game commitee's perfect game is implemented in our sadly imperfect reality. I realize building several prototype FIRST robots would be expensive and difficult, but I'm sure the idea could be adapted somehow and ex-FIRST mentors could be drafted to help.

[Not2B]

I had several TGW/TGR (Things Gone Wrong / Things Gone Right), but most of them have already been noted. So I will give one that we do on our team.

- Thing Gone Wrong - we should find more items in the Things Gone Right list. We can find more positives. This is FIRST.

P.S. - Although I did not make it to the A T L baby, I still think Sir Charles rocks. He grows on you - I can't explain it.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

On a completely other subject, I had an idea to help with rules consistency. BEST robotics typically has a "prototype game kickoff" where the game is presented to the hub directors months before kickoff and is open for comments. This is followed by a prototype day where basic prototype robots are brought to play a simulated game. All of this helps iron out bugs in rules that inevitably pop up when the game commitee's perfect game is implemented in our sadly imperfect reality. I realize building several prototype FIRST robots would be expensive and difficult, but I'm sure the idea could be adapted somehow and ex-FIRST mentors could be drafted to help.

I like this idea--although I can't really go into any significant detail, as I don't really know much about the game design process within FIRST. Perhaps having Storytime with Uncle Dave would help anyone thinking about that end of things?

[Pat Fairbank]

I was a tad ticked off that only the American National Anthem was played at the opening ceremonies, but I guess it's somewhat understandable considering that 18(?) countries were represented in Atlanta.

I also found the pyrotechnic display which accompanied the Chairman's award to be a bit anti-climatic, considering that everyone could see the technicians scurrying around on the field setting it up. I clued in on it right away, and it took away the surprise for me. I personally think the hidden confetti guns they had last year were better.

Otherwise, I found the Championship to be very well put together, and I commend FIRST for it.

Originally Posted by Billfred

Perhaps something similar to or improving on 296's Sundial concept is in order. On top of the Pit Admin announcements, those announcements (as well as queueing information, whether the fields are ahead or behind, etc.) would then go up on screens placed around the pit area, say at the end of each aisle. Didn't hear it? Just go check the screen.

The alternative way of doing that would be more Sundialish in nature, and probably is a bit cheaper--put all this information out on a website available over WiFi, then have fewer FIRST-operated displays on the floor (closer to two or three, as opposed to six or seven).

I have reason to believe that we just might see something like this next year.

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank

I was a tad ticked off that only the American National Anthem was played at the opening ceremonies, but I guess it's somewhat understandable considering that 18(?) countries were represented in Atlanta.

I missed the opening ceremonies because I was giving a presentation at the conference. Were the countries represented and acknowledged in the parade? Maybe we should have a FIRST anthem written and played in lieu of a national anthem.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by KathieK

I missed the opening ceremonies because I was giving a presentation at the conference. Were the countries represented and acknowledged in the parade? Maybe we should have a FIRST anthem written and played in lieu of a national anthem.

uhmmm, I don't think that would go over very well, Kathie.

[Jill1022]

we needed to be more aggresive.

[Andrew Y.]

i think the parking at some of the regionals where bad.

on site parking does not mean 6 miles away. and the transportation buses only ran every 3 hours. very inconvenient


award ceremonies started way too late


please open more doors up arond the dome!

[UlTiMaTeP]

The walk for Robots was not that bad. The Spectator walk was improved quite a bit also.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Things that did not go so well this year were..
- The scoring software. It really damaged the flow of the cometition and often sealed off the flow of information on alot of regionals.
- The penalties. The 30 point penalty is perhaps a bit excessive considering it's harder to score this year.
- The return of Sir Charles. 'nuff said.
- The lack of respect the animation, website, Inventor and Woodie Flowers award got at the championship. What they're not good enough for the main award cermony?
- The finals were too long. Those two speeches did not help. The flow was all out of whack.
- The food at the afterparty was not so hot.

By and large, this is my list. I personally enjoyed Sir Charles when he was on Curie--he's just got that something that makes him an enjoyable announcer. And I didn't go to the wrap party (it was already 11:00 PM when I got home), so I can't comment on the food.

As for the awards and speeches, I'd personally drop one speech for next year, then move in the Friday morning awards. That didn't sit well with me either.

Penalties were meh. I'm reminded of the old saying "A good driver knows the limits of his machine; a great driver has a machine with no limits." FIRST knew the limits of safe human-robot interaction, and designed penalties accordingly. However, I'd be ecstatic to see a game next year where that safety issue was minimized or eliminated. (Imagine a HP setup somewhere between this year and FIRST Frenzy in reverse, with HPs putting game pieces into play from behind lots of lexan and aluminum, and you get my concept.)

Outside of that, and this is rather silly, I do kinda wish the gamepieces were usable elsewhere. Bins you can use to store stuff (I've got six in here right now), balls can be bounced, shot, and thrown at freshmen to motivate them to work--but what can you use a nine-pound tetra for? This is gonna take some thought.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Outside of that, and this is rather silly, I do kinda wish the gamepieces were usable elsewhere. Bins you can use to store stuff (I've got six in here right now), balls can be bounced, shot, and thrown at freshmen to motivate them to work--but what can you use a nine-pound tetra for? This is gonna take some thought.

As abstract art?