Lessons learned 2005: The negative

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Billfred

...Outside of that, and this is rather silly, I do kinda wish the gamepieces were usable elsewhere. Bins you can use to store stuff (I've got six in here right now), balls can be bounced, shot, and thrown at freshmen to motivate them to work--but what can you use a nine-pound tetra for? This is gonna take some thought.

You are not trying, my friend. With some PVC cement and minor modifications, here's a few things that come to mind.

[Mr. Lim]

Consistancy in refereeing between regionals.

Maybe next year FIRST can consider having a consistant group of Head Refs deployed to each regional, much in the same way MCs and announcers are distributed.

Having a core set of individuals head-refereeing should make calls more consistant from regional to regional. In addition, it is much easier to garner feedback, and to enact changes when you only have a few individuals to inform. Weekly Head Referee meetings to share experiences from all the regionals become a possibility. Lastly, you don't risk losing all the valuable knowledge from week to week, when you have the same people head-refereeing.

I've heard a lot of "the refs are all volunteers, and they're doing the best they can," which I completely agree with. Refs should be volunteers, but help these volunteers by providing them with the best possible Head Referees to teach and guide them.

Of course there would be significant added expense in carting around Head Refs to 30 regionals, however if FIRST keeps growing and improving the way it has been, I think this is a sore point that needs to be addressed.

-SlimBoJones...

[BadKarma]

there always seems to be a lack of communication between autodesk and first. this has always been a problem it must be addressed.

[Quatitos]

My biggest problem with nationals is the fact that FLL and Vex were in the same place as the pits. Because of the different safety rules for all three competitions many people ended up walking through the FRC pits with no safety glasses on. This was especially worrying to me when I saw lots of little children walking around getting up close to the robots with no protection at all. My team brought a box of about 30-40 safety glasses to hand out to those without them, but because of the staggering amount of people without them we had to restrain ourselves about handing them out to people we believed would return them so that we could get as many people protected as possible. I still don't know how many of the glasses actually returned after being used but I'd like to believe that every one that is in the box when we left was one that was returned.

[Mike Ciance]

Originally Posted by BadKarma

there always seems to be a lack of communication between autodesk and first. this has always been a problem it must be addressed.

now that autodesk is an official sponsor, maybe we will see an improvement in the coming years. let's hope so.

this was my first year doign animation, and i have to say i was very surprised at the disorganized nature of the judging. the manual tells you to ask the pit admin for the location, but they don't know.

[the_short1]

Originally Posted by SlimBoJones

Consistancy in refereeing between regionals.

Maybe next year FIRST can consider having a consistant group of Head Refs deployed to each regional, much in the same way MCs and announcers are distributed....

-SlimBoJones...

YES!.. i 100% agree with taht.. considering the magnitude of the 30point penalties especially (hitting robot in loading zone, we hit once and they were not in process of loading, they just moved onto there to get in our way)
. . .. .. the inconsistancy at the toronto vs GLr regional stunk. . at GLR the refs were awsome.. they looked like veterans.. at toronto.. they all looked like.. 20s... !.. and as such they made some REALLY bad calls, not only for our team, but for many others that i watched.. it was horrible.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by the_short1

. . .. .. the inconsistancy at the toronto vs GLr regional stunk. . at GLR the refs were awsome.. they looked like veterans.. at toronto.. they all looked like.. 20s... !.. and as such they made some REALLY bad calls, not only for our team, but for many others that i watched.. it was horrible.

I think it's completely wrong of you to make an assumption that because a referee is under a certain age they lack the competency to understand the rules and officiate. How does someone "Look like a veteran"? I've been in FIRST 5 years and I'm almost 19. I can pickup some random 50 year old dude off the streets, who's never seen FIRST, and because he's 50, and I'm 19, you assume he understands the rules better, and is more competent?

Please think before you speak.

[J Flex 188]

I'm merely pointing out the fact that a predominantly large portion of ref's at GTAR and the majority of Canadian events are Woburn 188 Alumni (established in FIRST in 1998 and Canada FIRST 3 years prior) and as such they are all incredibly well versed in how exacting a toll penalties can take on every team, indeed, we have been the victim of a few bad calls and benefited from a few bad calls ourselves. Age shouldnt really and doesnt really determine how people call games. That being said however, I agree with Slimbo's point (not just because he is on my team ) that perhaps a committee of ref's could be established per region of competition that would travel to each respective competition and serve as a referee adivsor, or something of that nature.

Other than that, this has been a fantastic final season.

For all of you guys complaining about turnaround in Championships, ask anyone who attended the Waterloo regional. We had maybe 40-50 minutes at most between matches, usually it was closer to 20-30.

Originally Posted by the_short1

YES!.. i 100% agree with taht.. considering the magnitude of the 30point penalties especially (hitting robot in loading zone, we hit once and they were not in process of loading, they just moved onto there to get in our way)
. . .. .. the inconsistancy at the toronto vs GLr regional stunk. . at GLR the refs were awsome.. they looked like veterans.. at toronto.. they all looked like.. 20s... !.. and as such they made some REALLY bad calls, not only for our team, but for many others that i watched.. it was horrible.

[Emily Pease]

First, I would like to say that I really enjoyed the whole event. It was my first time to Championships, so I wasn't sure what to expect, but I was blown away by many things, including but not limited to Vex, Larry Page, Lego League, and the afterparty.

However, one thing that irked me, and maybe I'm just not as informed about this as I should be, so feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong here. My team (125) played 8 matches in the Qualifying rounds, and we were just filling out the alliance in the last match, so it didn't count for us. Our alliance won, but since it didn't count for us, our ranking dropped because our alliance members' ranking went up. It's definitely better that we won, because our ranking would have dropped even more if we had lost, but I wonder if it seems right that we should have dropped at all, since we were just helping to fill the alliance, AND our alliance won. We were ranked 22nd (and marked as 5-2, even though in real life, we were 6-2) after this match, and were not picked to move on to quarter-finals.

I really don't think this one match caused us to NOT be picked, and I don't know if anyone would want to change the ranking system just for such a small minority of teams who would be affected by this situation, but the whole ordeal confuses me, and I am going to stop thinking about it.

Overall, though, I'm so proud of my team and I loved the event and I'm truly happy for 503, 67, and 330, and YAY Newton!

[AmyPrib]

A few not-so-positives:

- Rule and penalty calls very inconsistent between regionals. Rules were being made up at some regionals, and at at least one, almost no defense was allowed. A decision about not refilling load stations in Atlanta defies the rules. There were a lot of rules changes and interpretation miscommunications on various things. Some solutions have been offered in previous threads, but I think something definitely needs to be done to improve this. A few thoughts:
- Simply having all rules/updates, and even Q/A by section available, printed out, at regionals to refer to might have helped the refs on a number of issues.
- Rules/game test perhaps is in order, specifically for refs... Since they're volunteers, and they are interested in the game and helping with organization, there should be no quarrel to taking a game test, as many teams make their team members do. Only seems logical, and shouldn't take much of their time. Updated tests could come out to incorporate Updates to rules.
- FIRST could include a 1-2page summary of penalties and calls within the rules so that there is one place to refer to, for teams and refs, when looking for clarifications. Also helps finding the incorporated updates.
- Maybe not feasible, but any chance FIRST officials could be more active on CD? CD is a huge resource for teams, and it might be nice to get direct feedback to some topics that are highly discussed and controversial on CD, esp if not covered in Q/A. It would show they are actively listening to team concerns and want to improve, and it might even help soothe some of the heated debate over interpretation differences. They might also become aware of big issues early and resolve it sooner. Reason I say this is because there's a number of regional planning committee members that request feedback like these threds and confirm that they want to use it for improvement. So, this thread, will FIRST see it, read it, and use it for improvement? Not really sure. Maybe not reasonable, but just a thought.

- Penalty/scoring weight seemed a little off. I think the 30pt penalty could have been a little less, but still effective. Even 15-20pts, but as someone stated, with 30pts, you can almost expect a loss. When you start seeing numerous matches that result in 0's, because the score itself never even reached 30pts, something might be off. I'm sure none of the 30pt penalties were results of malicious intents - and I understand the need for safety calls, but it seemed a little extreme when scoring was only worth 3pts and some 10pt bonuses. Granted, drivers got better in avoiding it, but still.

- Not forseeing the potential injuries resulting in tetras over the player station and implementing some protection early. But applause for implementing for Atlanta. If HPs are going to be getting close to robots, something besides penalties should protect them.

- Although Triple-Play got more exciting as regionals went on, I personally like seeing more robot and game variety, and more available tasks in the game, like last year. It was also virtually impossible to help your opponents score if you needed/wanted to.

- Ceremonies should have been broadcast on all field screens in Atlanta.
- Would be nice to ask Georgia Dome staff to open more than 2-4 doors when the bulk of 15k+ people are going in. Not sure if they had any open on the other sides, but the main entrance was crowded at times.
- A couple of the wrap-up party shows were a bit.... silly? I suppose there were younger kids there, but early in the evening, there wasn't much to keep a crowd in the seats. But other than that, pretty good.
-Closing ceremonies on Einstein, speeches a little too long. While there are great speakers, and they are great to have, the length tends to disrupt the energy flow of the competition.

Overall I think this year has been a great experience.

[Koko Ed]

Wow.
This thread sure took off.
So did any of you post the other side of the story in the positive things thread?
Surely there was something good to say about what FIRST did this year.

[katiyeh07]

After being in the Hall of Fame for about 3 days, I got very seperated from my team. I love(d) doing the Hall of Fame, but it really sucks you away from your team. Personally I'd like FIRST to maybe put all the Hall of Famers in the middle of all the divisions next year with bigger pits (15ft by 15ft possibly) so they can display their Hall of Fame with their pit. Not only would it be easier for the teams, it would give other teams something to strive for, and it would not only show what the team has done to win the Chairman's Award, but it shows how they work as a team on their robot. I know it would wicked benifit Buzz's team because we're always spread thin at Championships becuase we don't have too many people there. Overall though, great season, great job everyone

By the way, anyone go through the Hall of Fame, and if so, what'd you think of it?

[Collmandoman]

I can't say that I LIKED the penalties... but I understood them(except for the autoloader touching!~ ) and they were necessary -- I think the problem was creating a game where the human player and field crew had to be so close to the action.

I think the AUTO mode was fine ~ keep it as difficult for next year-- but just make it worth more

so yeah.. make a game that is safe -- not a game that has to be made safe -- if that makes sense

+ During a semifinal, my teams robot went to the autoloading station and one of the volunteers forgot to put a tetra on the loader.
+ NOT ENOUGH GIRLS!! hahah
+ Food was really expensive at the Championship
+ The time from the end of the match to when we got the official scores was wayyy too long, and the screen should be accurate with the scores to help the operators and coaches.


Yep, thats about all the complaints I got, aka... First did an amazing job

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by banztito

+ During a semifinal, my teams robot went to the autoloading station and one of the volunteers forgot to put a tetra on the loader.
+ NOT ENOUGH GIRLS!! hahah
+ Food was really expensive at the Championship
+ The time from the end of the match to when we got the official scores was wayyy too long, and the screen should be accurate with the scores to help the operators and coaches.


Yep, thats about all the complaints I got, aka... First did an amazing job

Realtime scoring can only be so accurate. There's exactly two people doing it, and this year they had to keep up with all 9 goals at once. If your coach can't do it himself I fail to see how you can expect someone else to do it and enter it onto a pocket pc as well.