Cheering, standing ovations, and required team actions during matches and awards

[Andy Baker]

In the 2005 Lessons Learned: the negative thread, a debate came forth about teams who stand up and cheer. Issues were raised by people who said that they don't like seeing people "required" to cheer for other teams. Other people said that it was not courtious to contine to stand and block the veiws of people behind them. There are a couple of facets to this debate, and I wanted to start a new thread to put them in here.

Since our team was singled out and it was said that we "required" our team to stand up and cheer, I will state our position on this.

Before our initial regional this year, we talked about cheering for other teams during the awards ceremony. I said something like "we will stand up and cheer for those teams, because we would appreciate it if they stood up for us". I didn't yell at them about this. It is simply something that we do. Follow us around for a year or two, this is something that defines what TechnoKats are. I'll try to explain more in the next paragraphs.

We've been doing this FIRST thing for 14 years. We've had spirited teams, competitive teams, non-competitive teams, and "sportsmanship teams". Over the past 5-6 years, we really have not been a spirited team. We are the ones who just sit in the stands, sometimes standing up to cheer when our team is on the field. We grumble when the team in front of us is very loud, but we also realize that we can move if we don't like it. Heck, we have NEVER won a spirit award in those 14 years.

However, during the awards, we have been standing up to cheer our fellow FIRST teams on since we had a bad attitude at a regional in 1999. I remember it vividly... it was a defining moment for us. FIRST even made a docementary out of us and our pivotal attitude adjustment at that regional.

Here is my opinion on why we do this:
1. We have won many awards. We enjoy seeing our friends on other teams win these awards. We honestly feel that if the judges think that this team deserves this award, the least we can do is stand up for them and cheer.
2. We want to win an award too. We have pouted because we did not win a certain award. However, oddly enough, it feels better to stand up and clap for the other team who won the award we *think* we deserve. In my opinion, this is theraputic for us. I recommend trying it for other teams who think they deserve an award but believe they are snubbed.
3. Award ceremonies are long. Standing up and sitting down 6-7 times during these ceremonies keeps us from falling asleep.
4. This has become a TechnoKat tradition. Maybe this is something we should put on the backs of our shirts: "beware - this person will stand up and cheer for other teams during FIRST award ceremonies".

So... I would agree that we are guilty to requiring our team members to stand for others when they get awards. It is a gentle requirement, though. Our student was wrong when they said that we would yell at them. We don't yell at our students (well... there was that one year when 13 of our kids didn't make grades and I YELLED MY HEAD OFF!).

Sheesh... sorry about the long post. Debate as you wish.

Andy B.

[Cory]

Right on, Andy!

I agree 100%

As someone said in the other thread "this is a high energy sporting event, not a piano recital" let's treat it that way.

Cheering for other teams is a common courtesy. The least we can do is respect each other.

Cheering for a team that wins award shows it's worth something, that people actually care. How would you feel if you received an award and it was dead silent? The only way people could make it more clear that they really don't give a darn is if they booed you.

If you don't like teams cheering around you, next time I suggest you sit in the end zones of the dome, as far away as possible, so YOU don't ruin the mood of the competition.

[Ryan Dognaux]

234 has gotten in the habit of just automatically standing for a team that wins an award. And that's a good thing, it should be almost an automatic reaction. When a team wins an award, you applaud them for their hard work and effort. You take the extra 5 seconds to stand up and give them some recognition.

I think it's absurd to single out a team unless you're doing it in a positive manner. All teams should stand and applaud an award winning team, it's just that not all of them do.

[Bill Moore]

MOE is another team that spends significant amounts of time "out of our seats" at a competition.

In between matches, during changeover and maintenance time for the field, we will get up and dance to whatever the DJ is playing. Once the match is ready to go though, we sit down for those behind us as the MC begins announcing the teams. We do cheer, not only for our own team, but for many others including friends, rookies we have helped, and others. In Galileo, the list of teams we cheered for was very long; we had many competitive friends in that division. We even had a request on Saturday from the UPS team (sorry I forgot the number) to cheer for them. They had a small presence in the stands (6 or 7 people) and wanted a loud cheer for their competition team. No problem, we helped provide it. TJ^2 came down during one of our matches and helped support our cheer with their water cooler drums, and we appreciated their encouragement.

Listen to the MC's from each division, they want the cheering level and enthusiasm high. They will encourage it themselves when they sense a letdown in energy. These are geek sports and deserve a crown as loud and as spirited as any for human sport. (That term was "spirited", not mean-spirited as many human sport crowds can become.)

During award ceremonies, our team will stand and cheer for every winning team. We do this out of respect for our competitors. We have met them on the field of competition, or in the judging arenas, and they have been recognized as THE Champion of those contests. As fellow competitors, they deserve the honor of having us acknowledge their winning efforts.

[SuperJake]

When I'm not wearing my green, I sometimes overhear people talking about my team with disgust in their voice. They say that everyone is standing up, dancing, and having a good time just because we want the team spirit award. This frustrates me beyond reason. A spirited bunch of high schoolers is something that is rather difficult to fabricate on demand. Most of the students I've had the pleasure of knowing are just out having a good time. The head scout, Bernie, is really a crazy guy in real life. He, along with the help of some crazy parents, are just having a good time. Actually, the crazy parents mentioned previously (Tom Z and Karen O especially) are supporting the team even after their kids went off to college in a far away land.

Is it so hard to believe that people stand up, dance, cheer, and have a good time because they truly are having a good time?

<edit> I said 'most of the students' without talking about the others. The students that aren't in the stands having a good time are usually in the pits, on the competition team, or sitting in the stands quietly. Usually they are just sitting there because they are writing a scouting report, jumping up and down is not their thing, or they are tired, or what have you. Still others just like walking around the pits, playing outside with other teams, or hanging out talking outside of the arena where it is quieter. And then, of course, there is the 4% of people always in transition between the bathroom and eating. </edit>

[Steve W]

I will make a post as one from a team that is just "getting it". First let me say that the teams that have posted above, do not cheer because they have to. I have become friends with many over my 4 years in FIRST. They cheer because of what's inside. A genuine love of FIRST and a real spirit of good will toward others. I have talked with a lot of the individuals and believe it or not they ARE contagious. The spirit does infect all that they come in contact with. Our team over the past season has changed from one that I could not move calling from the floor with a mic to one that was on the field leading cheers at SoCal. What a difference in the team spirit and attitude. I sure hope that it continues next year.

As an announcer I can tell you that there is nothing worse than a quiet field. It actually draws energy from everything. Where there is spirit, there is energy. I am a little selfish I know but as a 50+ person I need the teams to give out energy so that I can take it and do my job better. I love FIRST and all of those involved. I love the untapped energy that is running free at all FIRST events. This needs to continue. Don't become doorstops and just sit there. Stand up and cheer for yourselves and others. That is FIRST, don't change it.

[EOC]

Originally Posted by SuperJake

When I'm not wearing my green, I sometimes overhear people talking about my team with disgust in their voice. They say that everyone is standing up, dancing, and having a good time just because we want the team spirit award. This frustrates me beyond reason. A spirited bunch of high schoolers is something that is rather difficult to fabricate on demand. Most of the students I've had the pleasure of knowing are just out having a good time. The head scout, Bernie, is really a crazy guy in real life. He, along with the help of some crazy parents, are just having a good time. Actually, the crazy parents mentioned previously (Tom Z and Karen O especially) are supporting the team even after their kids went off to college in a far away land.

Is it so hard to believe that people stand up, dance, cheer, and have a good time because they truly are having a good time?

<edit> I said 'most of the students' without talking about the others. The students that aren't in the stands having a good time are usually in the pits, on the competition team, or sitting in the stands quietly. Usually they are just sitting there because they are writing a scouting report, jumping up and down is not their thing, or they are tired, or what have you. Still others just like walking around the pits, playing outside with other teams, or hanging out talking outside of the arena where it is quieter. And then, of course, there is the 4% of people always in transition between the bathroom and eating. </edit>

I observed your team at the championship with a certain degree of envy as our team sat in the stands with little enthusiasm. Your team spirit seemed genuine and unrehearsed; everyone was enjoying themselves. You provided a great role model for other teams.

[Rich Kressly]

Thanks so much for this thread Andy. I came across a similar situation, but even one step worse, in Atlanta this year. A Hall of Fame FIRST team (OK, it's 103) was standing and cheering for their own robot and drive team during a match. A FIRST Ambassador asked the team to sit because others couldn't see. A student politely explained that it was just during their match and that it was common for many teams to do this. The ambassador told this polite student that they weren't demonstrating gracious professionalism by standing. Sigh. Thankfully this is an isolated incident.

This is a team that, six years ago, had nearly no visible team spirit at competitions. In 2001 this team began an incredible transformation. By 2002, it became common for the group to cheer vigorously for their own and other teams. Do we really want to ask these teams to display less enthusiasm and less support for others? My answer is NO. Standing and cheering at appropriate times might be a minor and temporary inconvenience to some, but looking at the big picture, this is behavior FIRST needs to have and needs to foster. Cheering for others is different perhaps, but we are about culture change, aren't we?

[the_short1]

i also know of a lot of video tapers to be in the stands and we get in the way wwhen ppl stand to cheer.. and scouters . . my suggestion.. why dont the scouters/ filmers for each team have their own section JUST for them < reserved (or on the front row) and not let anyone else sit there.... so others aren't in their way.. i think that would be fair for both teams..

i know at each regional and at the champs, we always send our camera ppl on the front row.. or really high up.. but i saw some teams behind us in galileo trying to film.. and i was like.. are you nuts? .. we have flags and we proudly fly the canada and US flag .. and we have a couple smaller team flags.. and really they should think about that before sitting there..

[SuperJake]

Originally Posted by the_short1

i also know of a lot of video tapers to be in the stands and we get in the way wwhen ppl stand to cheer.. and scouters . . my suggestion.. why dont the scouters/ filmers for each team have their own section JUST for them < reserved (or on the front row) and not let anyone else sit there.... so others aren't in their way.. i think that would be fair for both teams..

i know at each regional and at the champs, we always send our camera ppl on the front row.. or really high up.. but i saw some teams behind us in galileo trying to film.. and i was like.. are you nuts? .. we have flags and we proudly fly the canada and US flag .. and we have a couple smaller team flags.. and really they should think about that before sitting there..

When I was the lead videographer for MOE back in the day, we always had to prepare for people getting up in front of the cameras. I always set up my tripod right in the middle of my team and extend it up over the raised hands of my team mates in front of me. When the taping was done, I'd always lower it again so it doesn't block everything. It was an easy enough work around. Additionally, with FIRSTs inclusion of media passes for team members makes the taping thing a lot smoother since you can get down in the restricted area around the field.

FIRST is taking care of the video people because a lot of teams use those videos for recruiting or sponsorship purposes. I've also been on the scouting side (if you are idle in the MOE stands, you will quickly be recruited by the scouts) of things. Again, I usually sit at the back of the MOE section so I've got a good buffer between myself and teams in front of us that might be standing up.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by the_short1

i also know of a lot of video tapers to be in the stands and we get in the way wwhen ppl stand to cheer.. and scouters . . my suggestion.. why dont the scouters/ filmers for each team have their own section JUST for them < reserved (or on the front row) and not let anyone else sit there.... so others aren't in their way.. i think that would be fair for both teams..

I think it would be good to have sections for scouters/filmers, but a few disadvantages might result:
- This year, depending on how you scout, that's 6 scouts per team.. 84 teams/division.. that's 500+ seats needed just for scouts (potentially). For our team, we have additional 2 people handing out/retrieving sheets every match and organizing.
- Our scouts take turns, that would be a lot of up/down, moving around action in those rows rather than being able to hand over to their teammate.
- Scouts won't be sitting with their team

Whether these weigh out the advantages, don't know.

I am guilty of grumbling and asking people to sit down when they're in front of us, especially when they take up multiple rows across an entire lower section, then everyone up to the top row needs to stand to see. Perhaps consider not stretching across an entire row, but maybe half and going up. That gives opportunity for other teams to sit a little closer, and perhaps half the section not needing to stand. But I understand the enthusiasm, they want to cheer, and we don't want to stifle it. I am one that is always aware of people around me, and I hate the feeling of being in their way. That's just my personality though and don't expect anyone else to be the same. It does make it harder when there are signs and noisemakers, and other stuff that's being held up in front, which makes it harder yet for people to see over.

I would ask, that if you are going to stand for your matches, that you not hold anything over your heads. I also ask that if someone does ask you to sit down, don't cop an attitude, shrug your shoulders, ignore them, or say.... "oh well, that's just the way it is, deal with it, we're not gonna move for you" and act all righteous. I have personally witnessed this by mentors on teams at various events... That's rude. Least you can do is explain the situation nicely. Just be aware of your surroundings. If you're the only 1-2 people standing in a sea of hundreds, sit down. If you're standing in an aisle or stairway, squat. If you're standing up in the front row (and nobody else is), sit. It's surprising how much 1-2 people can block.

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

Societal norms have been established which dictate that the "standing ovation" is somehow more respectful than clapping and cheering while sitting down. I tend to say pish-posh to stuff like this. If the most important thing to a team who just won a major award is to look up in the stands and count how many people are standing up in the seats to congratulate them, that's pretty sad - they should be jumping and cheering and celebrating their victory with their teammates. Now the CLAPPING AND CHEERING of the crowd - that's a truly great thing that can further fuel the emotions of the winners and make it a truly memorable experience - that's the key part of being respectful at these competitions.

The point is not necessarily to have teams looking up counting who's standing for them... It's people's way of showing great respect for each and every award winner, because every award is just as important as the next... not just the "top prize". But, I'll repeat something I said in the other thread... I was shocked at the lack of applause that occurred during closing ceremonies. If you don't want to stand-O, fine. But clap for cryin' out loud!

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I find that people tend to stand up at the most inopportune times, such as when a robot is about to cap a goal or when the scores are displayed. If you are smart enough to build a robot (although on some teams the kids dont), then you are smart enough to realize when to sit down. Some other teams had an OD on stupid pills or something because they were not courteous at all to anyone sitting behind them or anyone. Ive even told a few people to get out of the way when i was trying to walk down the stairs in the arena, its as if peoples minds freeze during matches, in a time of stupidity or not.

i am trying to make this nicely said. Do you or anyone ever get excited that your team will win a match that is important? We had one guy ask if we couldn't come down to the front and cheer our team on any more Friday and i was in shock! So when the robot is about to stack, i don't see how you can get excited. you spent 6 weeks for the robot to do this one function and all you can do is sit down and clap about it?

[Clark Gilbert]

Originally Posted by Tiki

I find that people tend to stand up at the most inopportune times, such as when a robot is about to cap a goal or when the scores are displayed. If you are smart enough to build a robot (although on some teams the kids dont), then you are smart enough to realize when to sit down. Some other teams had an OD on stupid pills or something because they were not courteous at all to anyone sitting behind them or anyone. Ive even told a few people to get out of the way when i was trying to walk down the stairs in the arena, its as if peoples minds freeze during matches, in a time of stupidity or not.

If you too are smart enough to build a robot, aren't you smart enough to realize that if you stand up and cheer too you can see above them?

I think standing and cheering for anything and everything is great. Sure there may be people who can't see around you, but you do have an opportunity to get up and move, since you didn't pay for your seat. While I was in FIRST for my 4 years we were always encouraged to stand up and cheer for other teams, heck most of the time we have very good friends on those teams. While in high school I had never attended a college level sports event, now that I'm a sophomore in college I can say that I've attended 95% of all of my school's (Purdue) football and basketball games. I can not remember once sitting down during the entire length of a football game, and only recently during basketball season (due to a very disturbed student section).

If you're not willing to show your support for other teams by standing up and applauding/cheering during the awards and matches what is the point of even showing up? You can stay at home and watch the matches over NASA TV in a very comfortable chair.

[Josh Hambright]

As someone who is guilty of all of the above mentioned activities (standing, cheering, clapping, dancing, waving signs, other forms of spirit) I must say that it is one of my favorite parts of FIRST. There is nothing like the feeling of seeing people cheer for your team or for you or for someone else. Its that spirit of comradery and that commond RECOGNITION of our acomplishments that really makes going to competitions amazing.

I dont know how many times i have heard from people who attend their first competition that one of the first things that they notice is that everyone is cheering and screaming and dancing and its all for robots!

I dont see how stiffleing anyones enthusiasm and excitement over the performance of their robot, or their encouragement of another team is anything but detrimental to the program and to the mission of FIRST.

Who wants to goto a competition and just sit there and golf clap for 8 hours? Not me.


With that said, there are issues of being polite and graciously professional that must be dealt with. If someone asks you to sit because they cannot see. Do not be rude to them. Move to another spot or try and talk to them and work out an agreement. Or take some of the suggestions abo like not taking up a whole row so that everyone behidn you is required to stand.

And as far as the comments about going to a concert and sitting politely. I guesse i just must be going to different shows then you guys, because most of the shows i go see, dont even have seats in the venue.

[Tiki]

I'm one of those people who would rather "golf clap" for 8 hours, I think the competitions should be relaxing, yes I have worked on that robot for six weeks, I have stayed at some strange place until the wee hours of the morning, the last thing i want to do after those six weeks is see an unruly mob cheering for a robot that they and the other 50 kids on their team built (or should i say the 15 engineers ). Unlike other huge teams, my team is limited to only 20 people, around 6 or 7 of whom actually actively participate, so yeah, the work to person ratio is much higher on our team than on some other teams. The size of our team makes it so that even if we cheered, no one would hear it anyway. My team is not not spirited, we are just quiet and reserved and always has been. There are no dedicated scouts on my team, we have to take time off fixing the robot to scout and if people are standing up, blocking the game or the scores, thats a big deal.