The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...

[ChrisCook]

Disclaimer: I love first if I didn't have to go off to college and leave this all behind. I would do this for another 50 years. I love the opportunity that FIRST has given me, and I hope I can return next year as an Alumni.

Prompt: I feel that FIRST has lost its objectivity. There is no room for the smaller and almost more devoted teams. These teams make up the 75% that don't go to Nationals or has mass funding or really devoted mentors. This thread was written in response to the " when do mentors go too far" and the "Worst call ever..." Teams that can afford more regionals, manpower and special interests, seem to always 'stamp-out' the other teams. Plus FIRST is not about the people, its about the robot and how well it does in competition, because no ones asks your team for advice, if your the last seed on a list; they ask the team first seed.

People can give me all the heat they want because I am merely stating the obvious. Teams with the most funding, mentors, and special interests do well and that’s how the program robotics programs continue. But for team like mine, the program is now nothing because we are losing our Head mechanic, head software and hardware, and team president.

Remember don't hold anything back. I want to know your real opinion.

[Keith Chester]

I watched as my team graduated over the past 4 years people that wouldn't pass high school without the inspiration FIRST gave them let alone go off to college as they all did.

You all know my personal experiences with FIRST.

The team I speak of here is a low budget team that worked hard and fits your description, yet still I, from a large team that you described, honor them.

I myself have gone through FIRST knowing that its ideals are there. I watch high school students get excited over thinking, science, and engineering.

It's a success, and the ideals are there. Come on by to NJ, I promise you the ideals are alive and well on the North East.

Never give up hope. The good is out there, and it's still strong.

[ChrisCook]

What I have meant to say is that Teams with great spirit and commitment are usually cut out of the spotlight. I mainly wrote this because I;m graduating and my team is being left with nothing because this was the first year that we have been back since our start in 2001.

I Don't care if our team gets honors or awards, i just want these kids to have fun, but if the program does not survive then whats the point. I mean the kids were inspired at the wrong time, They came to the comp. and said "why didn't you do this?" and the response I had to give them was we did;t have enough
(time?, money?, manpower?, enthusiasm? commitment?) and because we couldn't get our team to really see the bigger picture they just started to bail on our efforts and the few that were really dedicated to this project, had to face the burden of the work.(Which was about three Seniors)

plus another blow our mentor that started the team will be retiring from our school next year and we will have no program. What i really need is some serious inspiration and some people who think that this is just a joke to realize what they are really doing.
Thanks for your quick feedback.

[henryBsick]

Originally Posted by ChrisCook

I Don't care if our team gets honors or awards, i just want these kids to have fun, but if the program does not survive then whats the point. I mean the kids were inspired at the wrong time, They came to the comp. and said "why didn't you do this?" and the response I had to give them was we did;t have enough
(time?, money?, manpower?, enthusiasm? commitment?) and because we couldn't get our team to really see the bigger picture they just started to bail on our efforts and the few that were really dedicated to this project, had to face the burden of the work.(Which was about three Seniors)

I would love to have a new potential member ask me that question at a competition. They just showed interest and understanding in what is going on. Explain, we could have done that if we had X,X,X,X things, YOU can help the team to get the things needed to do those neat little things like the one you just pointed out!

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ChrisCook

plus another blow our mentor that started the team will be retiring from our school next year and we will have no program. What i really need is some serious inspiration and some people who think that this is just a joke to realize what they are really doing.
Thanks for your quick feedback.

Have anyone who wants to continue participating join another team. There are multiple teams around the peninsula that will accept anyone from another school who would like to participate. You could probably have a good deal of luck developing a partnership with another team.

Team 100 has had members of four different schools on the team at different points. In 2003 we "merged" with a school that couldn't form a team, and for over a year there have been more members from that school than the original.

[Bharat Nain]

If you want your team to survive, there are many things you could do. Use ChiefDelphi as a resource, I can guarantee you will find many mentors who are willing to help you[Not to forget, past threads. You will find a lot there]. Go find a successful team around your area who is willing to mentor you. Sorry to say, but you might have to start over as a rookie team. You could also sit down with a positive mindset, and create a game plan to make this team survive - I know it's possible, but you're better off getting some help. As Koko Ed said, you could also volunteer at FIRST competitions because FIRST always needs volunteers. I know you're possibly feeling heart broken right now because of the situation at your end, but there is a way, and if you're willing enough, you will find a way out. Good luck and feel free to ask for help.

[nobrakes8]

I have to somewhat agree.

I think all of us on the average sized teams or smaller teams see that we kind of get overlooked. We're the teams that have been around 3-4 years now and don't need mentoring or anything, yet other teams that either haven't really taken off yet or rookie teams run towards the same teams we had mentor us as rookies. I mean Team MAX loves haveing people ask us for help and stuff, but just going to compeitions with other awsome teams make us feel overlooked because vetran teams seem to hang out with other vetran teams, and rookie teams always seem to go running to those teams to ask for help and stuff.

Those teams in the hall of fame make it seem almost impossible to model our programs after. I think Buzz is the only team close as far as amount of team members that most midsized teams could compare to, but even Buzz has the sponsorship and money behind them to do great things. Most of the teams in FIRST aren't lucky enough to have companies like Xerox, hamilton Sundstand, and Delphi back us up with the money and comitment they give those hall of fame teams. My team was lucky to get 2,500 bucks in sponsors this year, that's it. You really can't compare Team 191 to Team 1071 or Team 175 to Team 1027. All four teams get it done and are regional champions over the years, except you have two teams with money to have fancy gadgets, look great for the visualization award and people to do great stuff in the community for the chairmans award. The other 2 teams aren't the greatest looking robots, have simple design, and bearly have enough kids to build the robot, let alone worry about awards.

I know team 1071 is kind of in a situation where winning is everything to us now. We really don't care about the chairman's award because we pretty much concede we can't win it with our team and the compeition we're up against (our location also dosen't help much for community involvment). This year we knew our website wasn't going to be an award winning site, we didn't have a cool looking robot, we didn't have anything special in our design, so if we didn't win the regional we would have just packed up and beat the Hartford traffic because we knew we didn't get any awards.

[sanddrag]

I haven't read all the posts but in response to the first one, all I can say is FIRST has different meaning to different poeple/groups of people. And to me, that is perfectly acceptable.

[ChrisCook]

Originally Posted by nobrakes8

I have to somewhat agree.

I think all of us on the average sized teams or smaller teams see that we kind of get overlooked. We're the teams that have been around 3-4 years now and don't need mentoring or anything, yet other teams that either haven't really taken off yet or rookie teams run towards the same teams we had mentor us as rookies. I mean Team MAX loves haveing people ask us for help and stuff, but just going to compeitions with other awsome teams make us feel overlooked because vetran teams seem to hang out with other vetran teams, and rookie teams always seem to go running to those teams to ask for help and stuff.

Those teams in the hall of fame make it seem almost impossible to model our programs after. I think Buzz is the only team close as far as amount of team members that most midsized teams could compare to, but even Buzz has the sponsorship and money behind them to do great things. Most of the teams in FIRST aren't lucky enough to have companies like Xerox, hamilton Sundstand, and Delphi back us up with the money and comitment they give those hall of fame teams. My team was lucky to get 2,500 bucks in sponsors this year, that's it. You really can't compare Team 191 to Team 1071 or Team 175 to Team 1027. All four teams get it done and are regional champions over the years, except you have two teams with money to have fancy gadgets, look great for the visualization award and people to do great stuff in the community for the chairmans award. The other 2 teams aren't the greatest looking robots, have simple design, and bearly have enough kids to build the robot, let alone worry about awards.

I know team 1071 is kind of in a situation where winning is everything to us now. We really don't care about the chairman's award because we pretty much concede we can't win it with our team and the compeition we're up against (our location also dosen't help much for community involvment). This year we knew our website wasn't going to be an award winning site, we didn't have a cool looking robot, we didn't have anything special in our design, so if we didn't win the regional we would have just packed up and beat the Hartford traffic because we knew we didn't get any awards.

I feel the same way I The only reason we got any money this year, was because a guy had his tire blow-out in front of our school ( Maybe if we get more flat tires or make people get flat tires they would give us money). Before he came along, our team came up with this slogan " YOUR TRASH IS OUR ROBOT" because we rip apart old stuff to build all our robots. Our robot this year was mainly created out of the 40 year old AL water polo goals, which were being thrown out because our school finally got new ones. Other than that we usually look at what we have and decide if we can use it before we buy anything new.

[ChrisCook]

Originally Posted by Cory

Have anyone who wants to continue participating join another team. There are multiple teams around the peninsula that will accept anyone from another school who would like to participate. You could probably have a good deal of luck developing a partnership with another team.

Team 100 has had members of four different schools on the team at different points. In 2003 we "merged" with a school that couldn't form a team, and for over a year there have been more members from that school than the original.

There has been talk on the WRRF Forum for the start of a College level FIRST competition, mainly because kids are having a hard time suddenly leaving the FIRST environment. I Don't know that this is legit thread from the chat rooms but i know its been out there.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ChrisCook

There has been talk on the WRRF Forum for the start of a College level FIRST competition, mainly because kids are having a hard time suddenly leaving the FIRST environment. I Don't know that this is legit thread from the chat rooms but i know its been out there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that kids are having a hard time leaving the FIRST environment. What specifically are you referring to? And why leave if they want to continue?

Sure, you can't actually compete in matches, but you can provide something much more valuable-the inspiration that some students might otherwise miss out on. As a college mentor, you can give back all that you learned during your time on the team, and hopefully help some kids out.

If we didn't have college mentors in FIRST, a lot of teams would be hurting right now.

Where are you planning on going to college? Odds are there's probably a team in the area (Which I'm sure wouldn't mind another experienced mentor) and if there aren't, if there's enough interest you can start a new one, or just volunteer at FIRST events, also another very important position of need.

[ChrisCook]

Originally Posted by Cory

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that kids are having a hard time leaving the FIRST environment?

Sure, you can't actually compete in matches, but you can provide something much more valuable-the inspiration that some students might otherwise miss out on. As a college mentor, you can give back all that you learned during your time on the team, and hopefully help some kids out.

If we didn't have college mentors in FIRST, a lot of teams would be hurting right now.

Where are you planning on going to college? Odds are there's probably a team in the area (Which I'm sure wouldn't mind another experienced mentor) and if there aren't, if there's enough interest you can start a new one, or just volunteer at FIRST events, also another very important position of need.

Did you read "when mentors go too far" The reason I started this thread was to combine the "Mentors too far" portion with the changing dynamics of a FIRST robotics team. I Feel that if you graduate, you let the team function on its own and you, yourself enjoy another level of robotics competition, rather than come back with the mindset of '5th' highschool robotics season. Becasue if i had the chance I would still be running the team next year if I wasn't attending college. FIRST is so adictive I feel that this addiction has become more of a quest for personal engineering bliss rather than really trying to ensure that other take the teams in the direction they see fit.

if the same person is in the dirvers seat all the time no ones challenges that or tries to lead a team in new direction, in short the team never evolves and everyone loses.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ChrisCook

Did you read "when mentors go too far" The reason I started this thread was to combine the "Mentors too far" portion with the changing dynamics of a FIRST robotics team. I Feel that if you graduate, you let the team function on its own and you, yourself enjoy another level of robotics competition, rather than come back with the mindset of '5th' highschool robotics season. Becasue if i had the chance I would still be running the team next year if I wasn't attending college. FIRST is so adictive I feel that this addiction has become more of a quest for personal engineering bliss rather than really trying to ensure that other take the teams in the direction they see fit.

if the same person is in the dirvers seat all the time no ones challenges that or tries to lead a team in new direction, in short the team never evolves and everyone loses.

Those are all good points. A lot of people feel that it's best for a college student to not mentor their high school team, for the reasons you listed, plus others. You can join another team, and start fresh. You can still participate in the program and not have to worry about the things you listed.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by ChrisCook

Did you read "when mentors go too far" The reason I started this thread was to combine the "Mentors too far" portion with the changing dynamics of a FIRST robotics team. I Feel that if you graduate, you let the team function on its own and you, yourself enjoy another level of robotics competition, rather than come back with the mindset of '5th' highschool robotics season. Becasue if i had the chance I would still be running the team next year if I wasn't attending college. FIRST is so adictive I feel that this addiction has become more of a quest for personal engineering bliss rather than really trying to ensure that other take the teams in the direction they see fit.

if the same person is in the dirvers seat all the time no ones challenges that or tries to lead a team in new direction, in short the team never evolves and everyone loses.

Chris,
The whole “mentors going too far” thing isn’t related to the situation your team is in. The downside to solely student run teams is usually the discontinuity of the team itself. People are engaged in FIRST at different levels, and when some really gung-ho student graduates (on a team without a solid adult foundation) the team has a terrible time recovering from it. There really isn’t a whole lot wrong with coming back as a “5th year high-schooler” mentor as long as you’re committed to trying to become a contributing regular mentor for the team. That’s how I got started mentoring, as one of those “5th year high-schoolers.” You’re mistaken in thinking that everyone loses on teams with longterm support from any individual. I think I can say that every student I’ve worked with since I was a student through my mentoring years so far has learned and had a positive experience in those competition seasons.

If you really feel that after you graduate you should have nothing to do with a FIRST team, then why are you so concerned with all of this? There are lots of terrific engineering programs and extracurriculars that you can participate in during your college years. If you’re going to college nearby, I would suggest keeping your studies as your first priority but I’d also suggest mentoring your team again in 2006 if it pulls through. I suspect that since you seem to care so much about your team that you really don’t feel that coming back as a mentor is wrong, but that you’re distraught with the situation and aren’t sure how to deal with it, which is totally understandable.

[dhitchco]

Wow,
I did respond under "when mentors go to far", but would like to add a couple of comments here as well. From the creator of this thread

Plus FIRST is not about the people, its about the robot and how well it does in competition, because no ones asks your team for advice, if your the last seed on a list; they ask the team first seed.

To that, I disagree, but also "understand". FIRST is definately NOT "about the robot". You must keep saying that and keep thinking that way. However, I do understand that you will only get seeded and picked for alliances based on the performance of your robot.

In corporate life, you can't be all "sizzle and no bacon". You have to have an equal mix of marketing backed-up by a quality product; or is it the other way around. Such is real life frustration!

I would also like to comment about:

that can afford more regionals, manpower and special interests, seem to always 'stamp-out' the other teams.

I have never seen a FIRST team (regardless of their funds, etc really try to "stamp-out" the other teams. You should be in this event for yourselves, and not for your sponsors, etc. Although I agree that most teams will do "better" overall with some good financial sponsorships, this is NOT about the "deep pockets" and corporate funding. In fact, I don't like the fact that teams announce themselves during the alliance picking by saying that "team 9999, funded by Acme Widget Corp., proudly accepts.....". The corporate backing, albeit important to get some levels of funding, should be behind the curtain at FIRST.