Go to Post How easy will it be for a driver to control 5-6 different motions at once? Most drivers only have two hands. - Kevin Sevcik [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 4.25 average. Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 15:40
jonathan lall's Avatar
jonathan lall jonathan lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #2505 (The Electric Sheep; FRC #0188 alumnus)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 547
jonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to jonathan lall
Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)

Ask anyone on these forums: FIRST is a lot of things. It is based on a pessimistic thesis about American culture put forth by Dean Kamen that challenges otherwise-vegetating high school students who get themselves into trouble and idolize athletes, to instead embrace the arguably more important engineering, manufacturing, science, and computer science world. It provides valuable corporate partnerships, and elicits a by-product of making young people and corporations more responsible about the future; indeed, these partnerships are the focus of the Chairman’s Award, an arbitrary standard which is said to exemplify the ideals upon which FIRST was created. Last but not least, it teaches valuable personal and cognitive skills that range from leadership, to problem-solving, to artistry. Those of us who have been around some time know better than to think all of these ideals were realized fully to begin with. This of course means simply that the mission of FIRST is evolving as it expands to never-dreamed-of levels and as new opportunities and challenges present themselves. It's still chiefly a robotics competition, but in the process of competing, a lot of good things happen. Certainly it’s not a bad thing to admit this evolution of goals I just described exists, and FIRST’s upper administration has obviously taken note; 2004’s Chairman’s Award for example, showed that FIRST was willing to endorse the brand new concept of multiple-team fabrication alliances. The recent introduction of website awards also recognizes a new niche created. To use another example, FIRST’s constant pressure in the past three years to encourage rookie teams is very clear, not only in Dean’s homework, but in the game itself. But there is another implication of this evolution that I want to talk about: The possibility that FIRST is losing some of its efficacy to reward high school students by flooding them with recognition because of the pressures placed on it that I outlined above.

We’re only coming up with more awards each year, and I think we might be getting to the point of having too many. Of course, we all love recognition. I’m proud that my efforts contributed to my team’s winning regional awards such as being a Finalist and a Champion, the Chairman’s Award, Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship Award, and of course, the Website Award (you can refer to my Who Am I picture if you think I’m exaggerating about my thoughts on that). Yes, I like recognition for sure, but only if it’s truly deserved. In elementary school, stickers on math tests and red or blue ribbons to signify my track and field dominance were always welcome. When I played sports (the crutches situation isn’t helping nowadays), a cheap plastic trophy that said my team won was something I was pretty cool with. But then at school there were always people that gave out green “participation” ribbons and put stickers on every math test. I won’t lie, I was a pretty smart kid in those days, and the ‘everyone gets a reward’ mentality didn’t go over well with me even then; this was reaffirmed by my getting at least one trophy in softball and soccer every year whether my team won or not.

If you’re smart too, you’re already seeing parallels with FIRST. I was surprised to find out in my second year on the team that FIRST gave out participation medals. Participation. Medals. It goes without saying that I didn’t pick one up for myself. Perhaps it’s a personal failing in me to ridicule the phrase “everybody wins.” I doubt it though; I think FIRST benefits everyone that makes a real effort, but to say that we are all winners, and then back that ridiculous assertion up with medals and awards I find to be one of two things: delusional or condescending. When I see a medal, I think "award," and though you might not make the same connection, I think most high school students are old enough to see the condescension and old enough to be motivated by not getting the prize they were striving and competing for. If the FRC is supposed to treat high school students as adults and prepare them for the adult world, then why did I feel like I was in T-ball when the awards were handed out? Why does it seem they aren't being given enough credit? And if the ‘C’ in FRC stands for ‘Competition,’ why are we making it a big group hug where everyone wins something? Gracious Professionalism is a credo of respect, and is among the ultimate goals of FIRST, but it is not an excuse for us to forget that competition is a healthy thing. Very few would argue against this point, and it’s my belief that FIRST has unwittingly taken away from competition by trying to make everybody happy.

Anyway, let’s take a look objectively at the awards FIRST gives out to teams (i.e. not including individual awards) every year at all thirty regionals:

  • DaimlerChrysler Team Spirit
  • Delphi “Driving Tomorrow’s Technology”
  • General Motors Industrial Design
  • Highest Rookie Seed
  • Imagery
  • Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship
  • Judges’
  • Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers Entrepreneurship
  • RadioShack Innovation in Control
  • Autodesk Visualization
  • Rookie All Star
  • Rookie Inspiration
  • Safety Award
  • XEROX Creativity
  • Web Site
  • Motorola Quality
  • Finalist
  • Engineering Inspiration
  • Winner
  • Chairman’s
</objectivity>

I’m not going to weigh the awards’ usefulness directly; it’s not going to accomplish anything and it’s disrespectful to those who’ve won them. But that’s a pretty hefty list, and might in part explain why I’ve seen entire teams leave during the awards ceremonies (of which there need to be two at regionals). For those of you that aren’t so good at counting and aren’t wearing sandals, that’s twenty awards. By comparison, the Waterloo Regional had twenty-four teams this year. Since, like I said, I hold awards in a high regard, I find our being flooded with awards takes away from their overall value. I want an award to say “you’re the best at _____,” but in situations (i.e. small regionals) where more than half of teams get awards for most anything and a small minority are left out, not only do the winners think less of their prizes, but the few that didn’t win feel worse.

Like I noted before, all the great skills and virtues associated with the FIRST competition are a natural by-product, but FIRST increasingly makes the process of acquiring these skills unnatural and artificial by rewarding values like team spirit with an award. FIRST is a lot of things, but when it comes down to its roots, it's a robotics competition, that should reach its societal goals passively. Ultimately, something like Engineering Inspiration and Chairman's Awards reward teams for exemplifying these ideals with a resounding "You get it!"

Now, eight of these awards have some corporation’s name on them. Were they all really needed from a competitive perspective, or are the new pressures placed on FIRST’s goals being addressed simply by introducing new awards? Do some of these awards exist at every regional perhaps only at the insistence of these corporations? You decide whether they are appropriate, if we really need them. Let’s say DaimlerChrysler just increased its sponsorship and it’s decided by FIRST to name an award after them. Of course, DaimlerChrysler doesn’t stand for “Team Spirit” any more than the next company, but one of FIRST’s evolved goals is to step up the enthusiasm in the stands for onlookers. It is expanding after all. Instead of having the Judges reward outstanding spirit when it’s really deserved and only when needed, an award is institutionalized in every regional. To compound this situation, I know for a fact that it’s difficult for our esteemed judges to figure out who is most deserving of the Team Spirit, Imagery, Sportsmanship, or Entrepreneurship Awards. It’s not their fault, but it’s still the case. Even if these three values all deserve to be recognized in some tangible way at every regional (which they might), in my experience, I’ve seen many deserving teams overlooked. Let's not dwell on specifics as to why, but let's instead ponder whether we'd be any worse off without some of these awards.

FIRST and its judges have of course realized this problem, and we can see a direct result in the new Chairman’s Award format. I mentioned earlier that it was an arbitrary award. FIRST defines arbitrarily what it wants Chairman’s teams to exemplify, and arbitrarily makes it the most prestigious award. Recently, FIRST has done well to introduce a Hall of Fame and revise Championship eligibility rules around this award. This legitimizes it, but it was also recently decided that submissions be small four-page essays because the judges no longer have time to go through all the submissions thoroughly. It is in fact very difficult to argue that as much time is spend by judges on the most prestigious award as was once the case. Indeed, when my team won at the inaugural Canadian Regional, we had a committee to talk about us and our submission in detail, in addition to our pits advertising our exploits, in addition to our submission being a professional-looking video. We put in a lot of effort because we were supposed to, and were rewarded accordingly. It’s a well-known fact that judges have the toughest job of anyone at a regional (we say it all the time too). But nowadays, the poor men and women in blue are spread too thin.

Furthermore, three of the above awards apply to rookie teams; this is an obvious ploy to capitalize on the rapid growth of FIRST and its need to keep everyone interested (just as the Spirit Award recognizes enthusiasm in the pits and stands). And it makes little sense; I wonder what would have happened if the Waterloo Regional had only one rookie this year. It would be kind of funny if their robot didn’t work and they loathed other teams, yet they got all three awards. Now I'm at the front of the line to help rookies, and I admire their courage, but that doesn't change the fact that there are three rookie awards. And what if all the websites sucked, or at the very least all scored below 80? This brings up the fact that FIRST gives out Website Excellence Awards, as if 30 Website Awards wasn’t enough. Again, I reiterate: if everyone is rewarded, it takes away from the integrity of every award.

Now let’s finish off with a disclaimer and some clarifications: I am not in any way asking FIRST to take any action about this. I don’t think they should backtrack at this point anyway but that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t point out what I believe is a bad thing. Perhaps this is where the expansion of awards should end. I don’t believe there was a new award this year, which is good. I think it's getting to be too much. Come to think of it, I’m stating a load of subjective criticisms here that really mean whatever you want to take them as. Some people might take something I’ve said personally. To be perfectly honest, I don’t really care if you do, but if you do, you’ve probably completely missed the point of this post. Before we go, let’s step back and imagine our own team winning one of five regional awards, rather than one of twenty or more. Everyone stands up and genuinely claps for us, instead of progressing to keep the beat of "All Star" by Smash Mouth (terrible song). Nice thought, isn’t it?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 15:45
Beth Sweet's Avatar
Beth Sweet Beth Sweet is offline
is getting lost in her new home
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta), #1504 (alum), #67 (alum)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 1,938
Beth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond reputeBeth Sweet has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

My opinion? Every single FIRST participant works his/her posterior off and each deserves recognition. My opinion? The more awards the better. Each celebrates a different aspect of the team and its excellence. The fantastic thing about this program, in my mind at least, is all of the positives associated with it. The kids are never put down, but rather praised for their hard work and dedication.

So I say, long live each and every award that celebrates the specialness of each team and of each student. Some may say that participation medals baby students. I say that they reward a job well done.
__________________
This season, I was a part of a great team, with great kids who were really inspired, and who inspired me back. That's my brag, what's yours?
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 15:53
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
TSIMFD
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 6,544
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

The awards celebrate a different aspect of the competition. They dont have multiple awards for the same thing (aside of regional champion/finalist that is, but since that's an alliance, that doesnt matter). The website award and the industrial quality award celebrate two totally different aspects of FIRST. The only awards I can see you saying that for would be the rookie awards, but that is usually the only award most of the rookies even have a shot at.

And most regionals, DO have 2 award ceremonies (Friday night and saturday night). Plus, many regionals now have 50-60 teams attend each year, which makes the amount of award winners (26) (and only 23 of those are eligible for all competitiors) not a huge portion, especially considering 2 or 3 teams usually take home multiple awards.
And about "that pessimistic view" of Kamen's, his solution is working. Of the 2004 fall semester at VCU, 1 in every 3 engineering students was involved on a FIRST team during high school. So, Mr. Kamen most likely had some portion of his view be proved correct, as his efforts obviously have inspired.
And now, there have been several awards that no longer exist. You dont see "#1 seed", "play of the day", "featherwieght in the finals", or offensive/defensive "match of the day" awards any more.
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 15:58
Eugenia Gabrielov's Avatar
Eugenia Gabrielov Eugenia Gabrielov is offline
Counting Down to Kickoff
FRC #0461 (Westside Boiler Invasion)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: West Lafayette
Posts: 1,470
Eugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond reputeEugenia Gabrielov has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

I understand how you feel. However, I think that each of these awards is meant to enforce a team behavior that went right.

Perhaps the more appropriate correction would be to change the format of awards presentation.
__________________
Northwestern University
McCormick School of Engineering 2010
Computer Science

Team 461 for life!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 16:01
jonathan lall's Avatar
jonathan lall jonathan lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #2505 (The Electric Sheep; FRC #0188 alumnus)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 547
jonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond reputejonathan lall has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to jonathan lall
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
Plus, many regionals now have 50-60 teams attend each year, which makes the amount of award winners (26) (and only 23 of those are eligible for all competitiors) not a huge portion, especially considering 2 or 3 teams usually take home multiple awards.
Let's suppose for a moment that no team got more than one award. There are just over 1000 teams. Depending on how you look at it, there are just over (20 awards times thirty regionals equals) 600 awards. This doesn't include personal awards, Website Excellence, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
And now, there have been several awards that no longer exist. You dont see "#1 seed", "play of the day", "featherwieght in the finals", or offensive/defensive "match of the day" awards any more.
A good point. Now let's keep it up.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 16:17
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,777
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan lall
Let's suppose for a moment that no team got more than one award. There are just over 1000 teams. Depending on how you look at it, there are just over (20 awards times thirty regionals equals) 600 awards. This doesn't include personal awards, Website Excellence, and so on.
But we all know that each team doesn't win only one award, which means that a significantly smaller amount of teams are receiving awards than you show.

I think each award is for something that specifically applies to FIRST, and should be recognized as such.

I think it's borderline ridiculous to say that the Chairmans Award was "arbitrarily" made the greatest honor. It wasn't arbitrary. The Chairmans Award is everything that FIRST stands for. It recognizes the team that does the best job of spreading the message of FIRST to it's team, other teams, and community. I do not understand how this can be considered arbitrary, at all.

The competition is the means to an end. FIRST doesn't want this to be like professional sports, they want it to be the way it is. The more teams that can win awards, the better. Just because you're at a small regional doesn't mean that a team isn't deserving of the award they received.

I also don't think that the amount of awards in any way degrades the value of the winner's awards.

$0.02
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 18:17
Kris Verdeyen's Avatar
Kris Verdeyen Kris Verdeyen is offline
LSR Emcee/Alamo Game Announcer
FRC #0118 (Robonauts)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 696
Kris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond reputeKris Verdeyen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
I also don't think that the amount of awards in any way degrades the value of the winner's awards.
Seems like it would - a National Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there is only one, is worth a heck of a lot more than a regional Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there are many. Similarly, I'd feel more proud of a robot that won a robot award at a large regional than I would of one that won at a small regional, at least in retrospect. At the regional itself, I'd most likely just be pumped. Of course, all I ever go to is small regionals, so I really wouldn't know.

As far as the rest of this issue goes, I'd have to say that I don't think we have too many awards unless we can't figure out what to base the award on. If, when we carefully define the parameters for an award, we discover that there's another award that's awfully close to it, perhaps we should decide to scrap or change one or the other.
__________________
...Only a few people are awake and they live in a state of constant total amazement. -JP Shanley, Joe vs. the Volcano
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 18:55
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,777
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen
Seems like it would - a National Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there is only one, is worth a heck of a lot more than a regional Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there are many. Similarly, I'd feel more proud of a robot that won a robot award at a large regional than I would of one that won at a small regional, at least in retrospect. At the regional itself, I'd most likely just be pumped. Of course, all I ever go to is small regionals, so I really wouldn't know.

As far as the rest of this issue goes, I'd have to say that I don't think we have too many awards unless we can't figure out what to base the award on. If, when we carefully define the parameters for an award, we discover that there's another award that's awfully close to it, perhaps we should decide to scrap or change one or the other.
Obviously awards won at nationals are going to be more valuable to a team than the same award at a regional.

I meant that if I win xx award at regional xyz, the fact that 20something odd other teams also won an award really wouldn't take away from the fact that I won an award.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 19:10
KathieK's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
KathieK KathieK is offline
Sometimes FIRST makes my head hurt!
no team
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Rockville, CT
Posts: 3,675
KathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond reputeKathieK has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to KathieK
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

I applaud Jonathan for stating his opinion and clearly marking it as such.

Everyone likes to win awards; they validate what you've worked hard for all year. Our media, school systems and sponsors value winning awards. As much as we try to show the true impact of the program on its participants, the culture here in the US (can't speak about other locations) is very focused on winning.

Veteran "have" teams may or may not have an advantage over "have not" teams. But most teams start the same way - with a humble beginning. And most veteran teams are willing to share their knowledge and assets with other teams.

And I think it's wonderful when peer teams give out awards to other teams... we value those as much as the fancy ones from FIRST.
__________________
Check out my 2016 Conference presentation, Dumpster Diving: How to Get Stuff for Your Team for Free or at Little Cost
www.usfirst.org | www.nefirst.org | www.firstnemo.org
Helping mentors since 2004
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 16:21
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,562
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan lall
Let's suppose for a moment that no team got more than one award. There are just over 1000 teams. Depending on how you look at it, there are just over (20 awards times thirty regionals equals) 600 awards. This doesn't include personal awards, Website Excellence, and so on.
The problem would be that there's an awful lot of veteran teams running around to multiple regionals sweeping up an awful lot of awards. My team picked up 5 awards. 118 picked up 7. 254 picked up 8. Despite there being an awful lot of awards out there, there's very few teams actually winning them. And I'm certain there's a derth of rookie, 1, and 2 year teams winning them. I think the large number of awards is mostly to give less veteran teams a chance of winning them so they can feel they've accomplished something.

My high school FIRST experience was on one of these teams, and it gets kind of discouraging to work your butt off and still come away with nothing. You have fun, and you have a good experience, but you're still kinda bummed. I imagine it must really wear on teams without fancy machine shops and corporate sponsors that slug it out and come back year after year on sheer determination.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 17:41
Not2B's Avatar
Not2B Not2B is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brian Graham
FRC #0862 (Lightning Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Farmington Hills, Mi
Posts: 401
Not2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond reputeNot2B has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
I imagine it must really wear on teams without fancy machine shops and corporate sponsors that slug it out and come back year after year on sheer determination.
It does. Oh well. (And we don't even have it that bad...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko Ed
I actually wish FIRST would bring back some of the old awards they cancelled.
They're fun. This is still about fun. Remember that.
Methinks we take ourselves a little too seriously.
Heck yes! They are fun, silly awards. I'm giving one of the students on our team a gallon jug of goldfish crackers this year at our team party - because his nickname is goldfish. The goldfish award. Everyone wins with fun awards.
__________________
Brian Graham
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 17:50
richardp's Avatar
richardp richardp is offline
Heidi's Minion
AKA: Lil' Richie
FRC #0116 (Epsilon Delta)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Herndon
Posts: 130
richardp has a spectacular aura aboutrichardp has a spectacular aura aboutrichardp has a spectacular aura about
Send a message via AIM to richardp
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not2B
It does. Oh well. (And we don't even have it that bad...)



Heck yes! They are fun, silly awards. I'm giving one of the students on our team a gallon jug of goldfish crackers this year at our team party - because his nickname is goldfish. The goldfish award. Everyone wins with fun awards.
If FIRST gets a national silliness award can we please call it the Dave Lavery award?
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 21:49
petek's Avatar
petek petek is offline
What would Dave do?
AKA: Peter Kieselbach
FRC #3654 (Tech Tigers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Middletown, CT
Posts: 923
petek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond reputepetek has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to petek
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
I imagine it must really wear on teams without fancy machine shops and corporate sponsors that slug it out and come back year after year on sheer determination.
There are quite a number of teams* which lack machine shops and big sponsors who really enjoy "slugging it out" year after year. I'm pretty certain one of the reasons they do it is for the chance to take home one of the many awards - not necessarily for the award itself, but for the juice it puts back in the team when they get one.

Maybe I haven't been watching closely enough, but it seems to me that those that put the effort into it generally get rewarded eventually. Granted, there is a degree of luck, or of being in the right place at the right time with the right presentation given by the right presenters for some of these judged awards.

There are some problem areas, like giving a regional Volunteer of the Year award to an institution, rather than an individual volunteer, and there are a number of very deserved teams which keep coming up just short of the Chairman's, but I don't think that limiting the number of awards, or the number a team can receive will change that.

* Going off on a tangent: Cybersonics has a machine shop - vintage 1950 or 1960 for the most part (though I suspect the drill press dates from the Civil War). We do not have any big corporate sponsors. Even so, this rural team has earned a large number of awards over the years, and though we did grab the brass ring in 2003, we still bust our tails to earn little ones - it's what we do.

FWIW, in robot manufacturing we have five mentors who are there most of the time - one BSEE and one ASEE - the rest do not have engineering degrees. Even so, we were able to build a very competitive robot this year. I guess it would be nice to have six-figure sponsorship and work with a corporate engineering mentor base, I'm not convinced that it would make 103 a better place for our students to realize FIRST's vision.
__________________
Pete Kieselbach
#4

Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 22:05
plutonium83
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

I'd like to see more division awards at Championships.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-05-2005, 15:57
Conor Ryan Conor Ryan is offline
I'm parking robot yacht club.
FRC #4571 (Robot Yacht Club)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Midtown, NYC
Posts: 1,888
Conor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond reputeConor Ryan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)

I'm with Beth too, more awards are better. Look at the number of teams at your given regional we'll say 50. None of these awards particularly overlap each other, they look at the different aspects of teams and their robots. Yes it would help if they could more rigidly define some of them (like Motorolla Quality vs. Xerox Creativity)

But you could also look at this from the perspective that these are all the contributing factor to the Chairman's award, each one of the other awards are standouts in their own category.

Two more quick points
-Awards motivate people to do better, its a proven fact
-All the companies pay money for these, and the more money put into First, the better it will be for all of us.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cheering, standing ovations, and required team actions during matches and awards Andy Baker General Forum 117 06-04-2006 22:44
Awards at Regionals Sachiel7 Regional Competitions 0 06-03-2005 00:30
FIRSTStar(TM) Rating Joe Johnson General Forum 36 03-05-2002 11:39


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi