Girls are still undermined?

[nehalita]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

Yes...it is the way in our culture but it doesn't have to be. When I was young...I took everything apart. It was years later when I told my parents what I did with their electrical equipment. The difference was....when I took it apart....I put the pieces on the floor the way I dismantled things...thus...I was able to put things back together and no one knew. I am sure that I was not the only girl who was doing the same thing.

That reminds me, I used to fear the "girl" stereotype so I used to secretly steal my dad's toolbox and lock myself up in a room to take apart my table/chair set over and over. It was the only thing I could take apart without my parents noticing but I think they noticed anyway and didn't mind.

Also, not to say that there's anything wrong with them, but I stopped playing Barbie's around the age of 4 or 5. They bored me because I couldn't do anything with them (actually thinking back, I don't think I ever did play with them...I got yelled at for neglecting them and not bothering to put their clothes on...too tedious...). Instead I enjoyed Lego's, the computer, and my keyboard. Those were the fine days...

To add to some of the issues brought up here. I definitely agree that workshops are beneficial. But as Ken brought up, a lot of engineering has to do with the though process. It'd be nice to encourage everyone to bring up their ideas and be assertive. I understand that all these qualities are not inborn but we live in a nature AND nurture environment. It can be cultivated. This isn't just a girl issue but I think it happens a lot with girls because they are afraid of being knocked down by boys because...well it's majority versus minority.

Also I would like to point out that many people felt that "it just wasn't a women's thing" to do humanity jobs and then science related and math related...but slowly that changed. I'm not insinuating that the same WILL happen with engineering but it's possible. In due time, we will see whether it's a gender schema or not. I personally feel it's the skills that are shown that make a difference. Girls have attain these skills or simply have them just as much as boys can. Those that agree, I'm glad, those that do not, well...we'll see =).

[Michael Hill]

I think this used to be a problem with the TechnoKats. I think girls think that robitics is such a "guy's thing" that they don't want to deal with it. I'm glad to see that there have been a few girls on our team that have challenged that predisposition. The Technokats have "Girls nights at the shop" where there are no boys allowed except for adults. And this Wednesday (I believe) we will have local girl scout troops come to our shop. I think it's a great thing our team is doing to try to get girls interested. I think it's sad that robotics seems to be mainly guys.

[Ellery]

Well all I can add to this thread is if you let them participate and give everyone the opportunity they will learn. Gender should not be a criteria of differentiation. Our team has always had a pretty good 50:50 split between male and female but that is by design since our team motto has always veiwed diversity as a strong point and gender so happens to be one of those metrics. We will always try to give the students their first choice of interest but if we beleive that a particular student would benefit being in a particular role we'll encourage them to try it out.

Every year I find a student that I will tend to mentor more just because he/she is willing to take the initiative to work with me. If they are willing to invest their time with me I will in return do all I can do to help them achieve the most out of this program.

Team members with initiative would prove to be best value you can have on a team.

Ellery

[Liz C]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

Again...yes it is our culture....as educated adults...do we have to permeate this? It is up to us to change things.

I completely agree with this. Because society tends to impede girls' ability to gain appreciation for fields/realms,that are otherwise considered "just for guys" (e.g. Tiffany's example that girls are introduced to gender-stereotyping at a young age, with their playthings), the only way to reverse this is to disprove these misconceptions and encourage and empower girls. What better place to do so than in FIRST?

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

When we recruits kids one requirement to being an X-Cat is you have to do one year working on the robot. Boy or girl. NO EXCEPTIONS.

I think such a policy is very helpful in preventing members from dismissing a certain aspect of the team based on their own generalizations. I know from personal experience and from recruiting in my school, that a little support and a push in that direction goes a long way.

Though I can't share an opinion about being undermined by a fellow member of the team, I can my experience as a member on an all girls team: If we did not provide an effort to encourage all members when it comes to working on the robot, we might not have many girls that are currently on the team (myself included); paired with the fact that they're are no boys on our team anyway, our teams existence would be questionable

[melon38]

we've had both kinds of girls on my team - the kind that are actually working on the robot, and the kind that do clerical work or team spirit stuff. Most of the girls on the team now are more spiriters than workers. There are only maybe 9 or 10 girls that are on our team of 50+. Out of the 5 senior girls, I'm the only one to have ever even taken a tech class. Girls have always been in the minority on our team. We've never had a female president (captain). That's just the way things worked out. We don't take the role that we do because we are girls. There are plenty of guys on our team that are more team oriented than robot oriented. There's nothing wrong with that, no matter what gender you are. Our girls choose the parts they play on our team. You all seem to be thinking that it's a bad thing to be more on the spirit side of things, but that is a crucial part of any team. My team, team 174, did well both on and off of the field last season. We came in 6th place and won the team spirit award at the Buckeye Regional. Not every girl wants to be a driver or a programmer. On our team it's a choice. Personally, I'd rather be the mascot again than working in the pit.

[sciencenerd]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

when I was raising my kids....Barbie dolls and dance classes were banned from Tiffany's wish list and extra-curricular activities...

My opinion is everyone should be given choice, girls or boys. Girls should be allowed to play with dolls or legos, whatever interests them. Guys should be able to play with dolls or legos too. Taking away the choices children already have is not the same as giving them new ones. You wouldn't forbid your son from playing with legos and force him to play with dolls just because boys are (in our culture, at least) less interested in them, would you?

EDIT: Fixed a simple grammatical error

[KenWittlief]

hey I played with dolls when I was a kid:

Major Matt Mason

GI Joe

Little green army guys

:^)

[Pat Chen]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

hey I played with dolls when I was a kid:

Major Matt Mason

GI Joe

Little green army guys

:^)

No crying dolls or Barbies, eh?

[mechanicalbrain]

OK so being male I wanted to get an accurate opinion both from my perspective and that of a female at our school. We've concluded that to some extent is its due to both genders. Some males do have the mentality that girl and engineer do not compute. partially this is a regional and cultural aspect on the male side.

In our area she has not had any complaints in terms of this area however I went to a local Best buy and while I saw lots of girls working their none worked at the geek squad desk (just a simple example of a technical career). So this brings me to the duality of it all, females apply a limit to themselves also. Both personally and on other woman, though this isn't helped by the fact males tend be repelled by intelligent females (especially if they are smarter then the guy ). I know that our team has numerous girls (around 15) though we are a big team (79 kids).

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

However, I will take the other side of the fence for a minute, and say that most females are more creative and more organized than the guys. (Im NOT saying guys arent creative or organized, its just both a genetic & environmentally induced thing). And in the real world of engineering/business most top executives are male... this is generally from the motherly instinct. Society & nature has deamed the mothers the caregivers and the fathers the breadwinners. Its the same in many animals as well.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea the idea that woman are more creative or even better caregivers (im not saying that you are wrong but that its not even close to being a universal truth). Its too close to a blanket statement. I do agree that in many careers a man doesn't have to work as hard to succeed, but thats not entirely do to social prejudice. I would like to point out their are plenty of animals in the wild where the males are caregivers, seahorses come to mind. And I'm not sure thats even indicative of humanity. I think humans have diverged quite a bit from traits that animals posses enough that our nature is very unique in many cases, even where we have unique feelings like modesty.

In fact looking at my fellow students I think that something like creativity, organization, and basic instincts can be interchangeable as creativity seems to be equally devoid in both sexes in most of my classes (you should hear a literary discussion in English, its the only time where its quiet enough for me to sort all my thoughts ). To some factor genetics and bodily chemicals apply but only to a point.

Again as Ive said I believe this to be a regional thing, and this is all just an opinion based on what Ive viewed from my school and region and this all probably changes depending on where you are (which is why it's impossible to make a generalization unless you live everywhere) and what you do or have done. From the point of a large high school, in a wealthy area, in Virginia the social stigma is very rare and what of it that does exist is normally unconscious.

[BandChick]

Okay, I know this post hasn't been active in a while, but whatever.

It's my turn I guess to share a ...different perspective of 1089 from Carli's. There are things that I agree with that she said, but there are also many facets of the team that I think are sliding underneath her horizon.

Carli makes a good point in saying that the girls on 1089 aren't often taught about the engineering and tech facets of the team because of time constraints. Like Karthik said, it is a lot easier to pass off the responsibilities to the people that know what they're doing, but I think that often, it's because the girls haven't asked for that responsibility. Maybe that's because they don't know enough to perform it well, but that's another story.

I would like to see the girls learn more so they can be more involved, but I don't think it's appropriate for the girls to expect to be taught during the build season. Things are crazy and hectic as we all know, and though teaching is important, it isn't always the priority. Sure, we all know that a major part of FIRST is teaching and inspiring kids to get involved, that's the real reason I'm still attempting to mentor my team, but we have 52 weeks to teach and only 6 of those weeks to build and create and do the majority of pre-competition strategizing.

My first year on the team, 2003, I came in with basic tool knowledge (ie knowing the difference between a wrench and a hammer) and that was about it. I learned about gear ratios, sprocket & chain drive trains, pneumatics, torque, physics, center of gravity and a lot of other things. The point of this little anecdote is that I learned all these things because I pushed myself to be involved. I kept asking questions and asking to help.

A lot of the time our team will say "not right now" or "in a minute" and the girls will leave to do other tasks. The problem is, leaving the scene doesn't allow anyone to teach when they have the free time. It shouldn't and CAN'T be the responsibility of the robot tech committee to find the interested students and teach them, it should be the responsibility of the person who wants to learn to be there waiting.

Sure, there are other things that could be done in that wait period, but maybe bring them with you, or schedule them for another time. Sometimes waiting is inevitable, and if that's the functionality of our team, so be it. I don't believe anyone on our team has ever flat out REFUSED to teach anyone. We might not be the most efficient or productive team, but I don't believe we are being "unprofessional" or "ungracious" by not jumping at the drop of the hat to teach.

Sometimes the girls are undermined because of inappropriate comments. There are harassment issues on our team, yes, but those are slowly being dealt with (and I really hope getting better). I also think that a lot of what Carli is talking about is a personal issue with one or two specific members of our team, and not something to drag the entire team through the mud with.

Lastly, I don't think it's wrong to want to be more involved with the team, but I think it's important for Carli (and everyone else on our team) to realize they have other responsibilities. If Carli choses to chair a committee, then she needs to take care of those things before she worries about learning about the drive train, electronics, pneumatics, etc. A lot of the time Carli will ask a question and leave to work on her committee responsibilities. That to me says she does not have the appropriate time to learn from robot tech. I would say the same about anyone else on the team as well, myself included.

[Madison]

This is just a friendly reminder to avoid writing inappropriate remarks about others here on the forums. If someone is incorrect about a fact, by all means, correct them, but please be aware that there is very little about this thread that is unequivocally fact and it is important that we respect the potential for varying interpretations of certain circumstances.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by C.Roberts 1089

They criticize us for 'not knowing enough' yet won't teach us. So all of a sudden it's our fault that we weren't raised with a background in engineering? That we became interested in it along the way and wanted to learn? Well excuse us, we should've known better than to think girls had a place in technology.

Carli brings up a great point. Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

Here's the problem. In general, less girls take tech courses in high school. Also, boys are more likely to develop hands on technical skills outside of school then girls are. So, a girl who joins a FIRST team, hoping to learn about engineering, is often pushed aside because she lacks these skills. When it comes to build season, FIRST teams rely on the students who can get things done quickly. So the manufacturing jobs are assigned to those who already have the appropriate skill set. In this case, it happens to be the guys. This is no good for the girls who want to be a part of this process. Now, they've been pushed aside and marginalized.

How do we fix this problem? Well, it's not simple. During the 6 week build, there often isn't time to teach hands on skills. But that's what the other 46 weeks of year are for. FIRST is a year long program. Teams need to concentrate on skills development for those who are lacking, but wanting to learn.

This year, one of our mentors Stephanie Thompson, has developed an action plan to get more girls involved with NiagaraFIRST.org. What I've outlined above are her hypotheses. The main point of action, is to set up a program whereby the girls on the team can develop "shop skills". Basically, it's an all girls program, where the girls can learn the basics about working in the shop. This way, when the build season starts, they'll be much more ready to jump in. By having it be an all girls workshop, the girls can participate and ask questions, without having to worry about being looked down on by more shop-seasoned guys.

I urge all teams to try this approach in these next few months before kickoff. It will ensure better participation, and you'll have that many more skilled workers come build season. We all know how crucial extra sets of skilled hands are for the 6 week crunch.

(BTW, These types of workshops aren't just applicable for girls. There are tonnes of guys out there with keen minds for robot design, who lack shop-skills. These guys are intimidated and pushed out of build roles in the same way girls are. Workshops like these would be great for them as well.)

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Carli brings up a great point. Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

While everything you've said is dead on with respect to girls, it also often holds true with freshmen/first year members.

[sciguy125]

I found some interesting statistics, at least for my school.

Distribution of Student Majors by Gender and Ethnicity
Engineering
Science
Applied Sciences & Arts
Social Work
University Total

Note that in engineering and science, the gender bias disappears in graduate students. Well, for the college totals at least; some of the majors are still biased.

The engineering majors (undergraduate) with the smallest biases are chemical and industrial systems. The most biased ones are mechanical and computer.

As for science, I was right about there being a large bias toward women in biology, but chemistry was close to even.

There are 3 times as many women in chemistry than chemical engineering. Oddly, computer science is 23% women, but computer engineering is only 14%.

Excluding biology, the College of Science is 29.6% women (39% with biology). The College of Engineering is 16.3% women. 70.1% women in the College of Applied Sciences and Arts. In total, San Jose State University is 50.6% women.


If you want to comb through other data, you can find an index of all the tables here.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Karthik

... Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

...When it comes to build season, FIRST teams rely on the students who can get things done quickly. So the manufacturing jobs are assigned to those who already have the appropriate skill set.

This post flags some of the most common problems that FIRST teams encounter - the traps we fall into.

1. When you start thinking FIRST is a robotics competition, you forget we are here to show students what a career in engineering and science will be like. When building a better robot is more important than giving a student exposure to new skills and career insight, the train has jumped the tracks and is plowing mud.

The answer to this problem is not easy. As mentors we often have to reject great robot ideas because they are too complex, and students would not be able to implement them in 6 weeks. Very often we have simplified our design so the students, new unskilled students, would be able to handle the tasks. Some of our robots turned out mediocre, but our students turned out excellent.

2. Engineering is NOT manufacturing. I say this repeatedly every year, but many teams fall into the trap of thinking engineers are machinists and wiring technicians. Engineering is the design part, figuring out what the machine will do, and how it will do it. Building the machine (in the real world) is a process of the engineers producing drawings, and machinists fabricating the parts, and usually technicians assembling them. It is good to be able to fabricate things with your own hands, but thats not what engineers do.

in fact, I always feel very uncomfortable if I have to man a drill press, or solder circuit boards, or assemble prototypes at work, because that is not what Im being paid to do. In a pinch I can, but if Im doing fabrication and assembly work all day long something is seriously wrong with the project!