here's another question, Do you like rap music?

[Judy]

We're not saying that people aret entitled to their stuff, call it culture, call it a way of life, style, whatever. I'm all for people escaping from the GAP generation bubble( oh no, people are going to find that really offensive, oh well, I figure the GAP stands for all conformity in the world) But it again goes to where do we draw the line? We live in a world where trench coats are suddenly a sign of evil, murder, and HS terrorism, and these students are questioned and the cops are called, etc ( it happened to a friend of mine just for him wearing his trench coat, nothing else) In this world it seems that your sense of style defines you in the eyes of the public, and maybe this isnt right... but the point is, as Ben put it very well, some groups are persecuted for what they wear, why arent others? Ben brought up some very good points, where do we draw the line when a "sub-culture" promotes messages that are against the grain, and not in the best interest for a peaceful society? I know this goes very extreme, but if no one steps in when something wrong is promoted by a group and it soon has a large following, and still no one steps in.. do we end up with movements like of the Nazis? It's an interesting(tho extreme I'll admit) thought.. not to mention, look at some of the 'rap stars' they arent exactly the most law abiding citizens are they?
*sigh* congrats everyone, I think we have the most contriversial thread going on here. Whateva....
*hugz to all as alwayz*
Ann-Marie -team 783
PS. no matter how much I argue my points and all that i still luv you all and hope no one comes off extremely hurt and completely offened, it's a debate and I dont want people to loose sleep or anything over it..

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally posted by Maikettei


Actually, you could probably shoot a black man and hardly get any time. Especially if you are a police officer. The only way you would get a really bad sentence is if they decided it was a hate .

THAT i find racist.

To think that policemen and women risks their lives everyday to help make us safe, and to have you bashing them. Did it every occur to you that police are people too?

On the whole, they don't enjoy shooting ANYONE, but if their lives are in danger, I think they'd be correct to defend themselves.

On a personal point of view: I'd rather go to jail for killing someone to defend myself, than to die, and have my wife and kids attend my funeral, while some punk keeps on selling drugs at some street corner. I think YOU need take a step back, and look more clearly at the situation. I'm not going to guess at what race you are, but whatever you are, you need to take a look from a different perspective, maybe see it from a policeman or a 3rd person point of view.

Not all white people are racist. Not all black people are racist. Its just a few rotten apples (NAACP, KKK, black panthers, etc) that bring this sterotype to apply to everyone. Its too bad you fell for it.

You message is quite clearly biased, espcially since the N-word is degrading, no matter WHO says it. And it shoudl be right for me to say it (being white) and getting in trouble, but when a black person says it, its fine.


And here' s the best part:

You said it was ok for black people to say the N-word, comapring it to family. It is not, according to you, ok for a white guy to say the N-word. If both races are equal, you've just admitted to a double standard, which is in voilation of the equality that america is striving for.

See my above post for my thoughts on the "hip-hop culture"

As for Goths, I've found them (at least the ones at my school) to be friendly. I'm afraid to approach any of the "hip hoppers" (is that what you call them) becuase a simple hello is answered by a string of curses, yo's and racist slurs.

that was much more than 2 cents. Are'nt you a member of the X-cats? X-cats are a good team.

"Heritage, not Hatred!" <- 1st amendment rules

[Maikettei]

Originally posted by Judy
Here we go... I know this was coming.. people are starting to get really offened now, myself included...
alright, now, lemme explain the convict thing... cause many people may not understand that pants that are that low do stem from convicts... way back they used to put them in really huge clothes so that when they tried to escape they'd have trouble running... I mean I can understand if a guy wants more 'space' but when they're down really really low, it looks horrible, and it drives me crazy.. esp. when I have to see their boxers all the time because of it... I'm sorry, pants were made to cover your postierier, not to sit right under it.... The clothing 'should' not make anyone look like a convict, but the truth is, in my opinion, that it does.
Ok. Now I know you're just trying to prove a point by showing other sterotypes, but I take extreme offense to the saying of goths being satanists...

I don't know about where you live, but around here people don't really wear their pants like that anymore. It WAS a fad, but like any fad, its already had its 15 minutes of fame. If people around you are still doing it, they are out of date... lol... around here if girls see a guys boxers they quickly let him know his unmentionables are showing. About the pants being baggy... Have you seen the pants ravers wear? HUGE. There are two reasons for this... its part of the fashion, and it looks really good to have loose baggy pants when you dance. That goes for both rave and hip-hop cultures. Of course, many people don't ever take the time to find out WHY people dress the way they do.

I'm sorry you took offense to my comment about Goths. I really just wanted to show how stupid stereotypes are. I have a few friends that are goths and one guy is INCREDIBLE... very open-minded and accepting of all types of people. I also have friends that are ravers and punks and are into hip-hop... Of course, my analogies seem to have gone right over your head.

You say the 'masses' prove your stereotype right? Even if it was the 'masses' that made it true, would that still represent the ENTIRE group? Of course not. It cannot be the 'masses' anyway because you most likely haven't met the majority of people who embrace hip-hop culture, and even if you had, you probably haven't made much of an effort to understand why these people enjoy what they do, judging from the content of your answers. I've met a few goths who represent these stereotypes... but by no means do I attempt to classify them as the 'masses'

[Judy]

K, i've decided to bite my tounge for the nite... I've had enough of being slandered for one day and I think I'll wait to reply till I can do so in an objective and clear manner.. cause right now I wont do so...
*hugz to all as alwayz*
Ann-Marie -team 783

[Ben Mitchell]

same here, I've had enough for one night

[Maikettei]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
I did'nt say the clothes were inexpensive, but it does make them look..well...

Makes them look what? Unacceptable to you because you don't share an interest in their culture?

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
as for "urban clothing" --kids get in trouble for wearing confedrate flags on their clothing, kids get in trouble for wearing trenchcoats after school shootings. Why should these students have their first amendent rights suspended in an unconstitutional school rule, while gansta people are allowed to wear baggy clothes - perfect for smuggling drugs and weapons, and other clothing which is designed to promote a lower quality of life.

See... about the whole confederate flag... I think its more about what people think it represents... the same thing with the trenchcoats... it evokes feelings of fear or hatred and people want to prevent that... those two things don't really bother me though. But like I said before, its not only people who are into hip-hop that wear baggy clothes... so people really should cut the baggy clothes excuse out.

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
Just isten to any rape song: does it treat men and women equally? Blacks and whites? Does it promote drug use, prostitution, and other unethical practices.

I beleive you CAN blame rap, in part, for some of societies problems. The lyrics of rap music, by a great majority, promote racism against white people (ME!), as well as voilence, most notable agianst women and police officers. Also condoned are
drug use, prostitution, and other illegal activities.

Listen to almost any type of music and you can find crap. Rock music is not squeaky clean either. Not even electronica is free of debauchary. I hear references to all kinds of drugs in electronic music. I am by NO means saying rap is a perfect form of art. I am saying that people should stop blaming society's downfalls on rap when there are many other cultures that have their own negatives.

[Maikettei]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell

Did it every occur to you that police are people too?

On the whole, they don't enjoy shooting ANYONE, but if their lives are in danger, I think they'd be correct to defend themselves.

I think YOU need take a step back, and look more clearly at the situation. I'm not going to guess at what race you are, but whatever you are, you need to take a look from a different perspective, maybe see it from a policeman or a 3rd person point of view.

Not all white people are racist. Not all black people are racist. Its just a few rotten apples (NAACP, KKK, black panthers, etc) that bring this sterotype to apply to everyone. Its too bad you fell for it.

You message is quite clearly biased, espcially since the N-word is degrading, no matter WHO says it. And it shoudl be right for me to say it (being white) and getting in trouble, but when a black person says it, its fine.


And here' s the best part:

You said it was ok for black people to say the N-word, comapring it to family. It is not, according to you, ok for a white guy to say the N-word. If both races are equal, you've just admitted to a double standard, which is in voilation of the equality that america is striving for.

See my above post for my thoughts on the "hip-hop culture"

that was much more than 2 cents. Are'nt you a member of the X-cats? X-cats are a good team.

Whoa. You have me TOTALLY mistaken. I've not once said ANYTHING about anyone here being racist. Nor have I disrespected the police force or said anything about them enjoying shooting people... especially since many people in my family have at one time or another been police officers. I think if you are shooting someone in self defense thats fine, but 40 some odd shots to one person is a bit overboard.

Not once have I tried to offend ANYONE. I said a few stereotypes and then immediately dismissed them as such. I never accused any group of being that stereotype. I just used them as an analogy to help defend a culture that everyone seems to constantly bash. I am sorry if you took offense to it, but I'm not slandering any culture. I am simply trying to pull hip-hop culture out of the gutter people so often throw it down into.

It is not a double standard. Since you are not black you really have no say as to how the word can and cannot be used.
Why? Because no matter who says the word, it still has no effect on you.

No need to guess what race I am. I am black-hispanic. I love Electronic music, punk, alternative, and J-pop. I have friends of every race and of almost every subculture and religion. I like to think I am fairly open-minded. So I am very suprised that people think I am slandering them. I never said any other type of music is crap like many people on this board have said about rap... I also did not say anything about any person's subculture being crap since I am either a part of that culture or have close friends who are. And even if I didn't know about someone elses culture I would take the time to learn about it and respect it regardless.

Yes I am on the X-Cats team... a very racially and culturally diverse team. I find it odd that you would say how good of a team we have as if I were making it bad. I didn't say anyone was racist. I didn't say anything negative about anyone really, with exceptions to my analogy, which everyone seemed to have understood was an analogy anyway. Please, show me where I slandered people and I would be more than happy to apoloigize and provide an explanation for any misunderstanding.

[Scottie2Hottie]

I do not want this to turn into an all out flame war, so I'll make sure I phrase everything carefully.

There is no denying that much of the popular rap endorses violence, promiscuious sex, drug use, and overall vulgarity. To say that such things constantly listened to does not have an effect on the listener would be utter nonsense. If you would like proof, look up the Albert Bandura experiments. And, an effect on a large listening population would in turn have an effect on society. And, from what I have gathered through personal observartions, it is not a good effect.

There are also cases I have seen in which this has not happened. I have a very good friend who is very involved in the hip-hop scene (By the way, he is appalled by popular rap). He runs a show on our school radio station called the hip-hop spot. He is a phenomonal poet a great freestyler. He does not dress to fit in with the crowd, he does not talk like the rest of the crowd, he does not act like the rest of the crowd. So, I would submit, The croud is not dressing, talking, acting they way they do because of the Hip-hop culture, It's something else. Something thats not hip hop I.E. popular rap.


now to address some previous arguments

Speak a type of slang or a different dialect around their friends than people speak in the suburbs? People shouldn't have to conform to what Corporate America defines as correct in order to be treated equally.

When that dialect includes words that are vulgar and wholly unacceptable it is neccesary to conform. I witnessed a fight between two girls and a guy that are in this "culture" just yesterday which included a large amount of very unacceptable vulgarities. Will that be accepted in the business world, absolutely not, is it fair, definitely.

Actually, you could probably shoot a black man and hardly get any time. Especially if you are a police officer. The only way you would get a really bad sentence is if they decided it was a hate crime.

I think you are very, very misinformed. a hate crime is defined as: "a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against an individual's or a group's race, religion, ethnic/national origin, gender, age, disability, or sexual orientation." The "motivated ... In part" leaves a large "gray area", basically leaving it to the discression of the judge. I think the police officer comment was completely out of line. The majority of Police Officers are out there to protect everyone. Very few Police Officers harm others when it is not completely neccesary. But thats me ranting.

As for that sensitive word, the only problem I have is that people worked so hard to expell that word from the english language, only to have it brought back by prosterity. It just bothers me

I would just like to leave you with a thought from C.S. Lewis

"Now the trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed"

Well, I think I've said all i have to say for now.

cla clink cla clink
.02 hits the monitor

[David Kelly]

i listen to rap when i feel like being ghetto. it's fun and i have this bad habbit of cussing profously. ask some members of my team. i got if from courtney cause when we go on trips the first words out of her mouth are cuss words when she wakes up

[Maikettei]

Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie
There are also cases I have seen in which this has not happened. I have a very good friend who is very involved in the hip-hop scene (By the way, he is appalled by popular rap). He runs a show on our school radio station called the hip-hop spot. He is a phenomonal poet a great freestyler. He does not dress to fit in with the crowd, he does not talk like the rest of the crowd, he does not act like the rest of the crowd. So, I would submit, The croud is not dressing, talking, acting they way they do because of the Hip-hop culture, It's something else. Something thats not hip hop I.E. popular rap.

I agree that music can affect a person to a certain degree, but it really bothers me when people say all rap is poison and crap when 1. they have only really heard mainstream rap and/or 2. they do it while saying their type of music is the best as if they are listening to the most moral music ever made.

Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie
When that dialect includes words that are vulgar and wholly unacceptable it is neccesary to conform. I witnessed a fight between two girls and a guy that are in this "culture" just yesterday which included a large amount of very unacceptable vulgarities. Will that be accepted in the business world, absolutely not, is it fair, definitely.

That can be assumed for all dialects. These two people were fighting... It's only natural some awful words would be heard from them. I highly doubt if these two girls made it the business world they would fight in the vicinity of their office. Also, people need to remember that 2 girls do not represent the majority. Besides, people who are not a part of hip-hop cultures can be very vulgar as well. Have you ever watched the Osbornes? Of course, they don't represent the majority anyway, right?

Originally posted by Scottie2Hottie
I think you are very, very misinformed. a hate crime is defined as: "a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender's bias against an individual's or a group's race, religion, ethnic/national origin, gender, age, disability, or sexual orientation." The "motivated ... In part" leaves a large "gray area", basically leaving it to the discression of the judge. I think the police officer comment was completely out of line. The majority of Police Officers are out there to protect everyone. Very few Police Officers harm others when it is not completely neccesary. But thats me ranting.

This is really a whole different topic that I would love to get into at another time. I was simply reffering to events such as those with Amadou Diallo shot 41 times, and unarmed... if you haven't heard that name before, I really think YOU are misinformed. I wasn't saying that police officers are racist nor am I saying those officers represent the entire police force. They WERE strongly influenced by stereotypes. They were scared I guess, because they've heard some negative stereotypes, and they acted on fear instead of logic. This is why I get SO offended when I hear people saying that hip-hop (or ANY culture)causes people to be negative people. Hip-hop culture no more causes people to kill than does Rammstein encourage school shootings. These types of generalizations are what cause people to be afraid of other people and cause accidents like these to happen. Sorry if I made too light of a sad situation, but my desire was simply to get people to not think so poorly of rap.


As for the N-word... thats another completely different subject that should be taken to the Open Thoughts board if anything (if its ok with the board owner)... I already have a bad feeling what was supposed to be an intelligent debate will turn bad sooner than later and be locked or deleted...

Thats all for now

[Ben Mitchell]

Originally posted by Maikettei


This is really a whole different topic that I would love to get into at another time. I was simply reffering to events such as those with Amadou Diallo shot 41 times, and unarmed... if you haven't heard that name before, I really think YOU are misinformed. I wasn't saying that police officers are racist nor am I saying those officers represent the entire police force. They WERE strongly influenced by stereotypes. They were scared I guess, because they've heard some negative stereotypes, and they acted on fear instead of logic. This is why I get SO offended when I hear people saying that hip-hop (or ANY culture)causes people to be negative people. Hip-hop culture no more causes people to kill than does Rammstein encourage school shootings. These types of generalizations are what cause people to be afraid of other people and cause accidents like these to happen. Sorry if I made too light of a sad situation, but my desire was simply to get people to not think so poorly of rap.

Once again, if I'm a policeman, and someone pulls something out of his coat in the dark when i've told him to put his hands up, i have a choice to make

A. Wait for him to draw whatever he's got, risking my life
or
B. Use what data I have to make a decision, with minimal risk to myself and my partners

Once again, if I have a choice of going to jail for killing someone, or dying, leaving my wife and children behind, I will chose the former. You can just mess around in a deadly situation, and you don't pull out a black wallet from a coat pocket when the police tell you to put your hands up: if you don't speak the language, just don't move. Obviously, if my hands are going into my coat, the officers would'nt know i was going for a wallet: for all they knew, he could be going for a hand grenade or a gun. I think they made the right decision. It was traget, yes, but not a hate crime. The officers will live with remorse the rest of their lives: their careers are ruined. They've been through enough. I think we all need to back off this one, before it becomes WW3 on this board.

[Maikettei]

Originally posted by Ben Mitchell
Once again, if I have a choice of going to jail for killing someone, or dying, leaving my wife and children behind, I will chose the former. You can just mess around in a deadly situation, and you don't pull out a black wallet from a coat pocket when the police tell you to put your hands up: if you don't speak the language, just don't move. Obviously, if my hands are going into my coat, the officers would'nt know i was going for a wallet: for all they knew, he could be going for a hand grenade or a gun. I think they made the right decision. It was traget, yes, but not a hate crime. The officers will live with remorse the rest of their lives: their careers are ruined. They've been through enough. I think we all need to back off this one, before it becomes WW3 on this board.

I can totally understand defending yourself, but 41 shots? That's more than a bit excessive. Especially once you see the guy isn't shooting back. Also I did not say the officers commited a hate crime. I said I thought it was out of fear. Fear because of what? Negative stereotypes.

Hopeless cause though because people seem to want to take my comments as slander when I'm not even saying anything bad about anyone.

[Judy]

Alright here we go, I'm planning on putting a lot out there on this one, so sit tight.
First off, I think I shall address the issue of racism. There has been some debate here over the dreaded 'N-word'. Now, I realize it is found to be offensive, but saying that it's ok when black people say it, but not when white do, indeed creates a double standard. Perhaps double standards like this do exist elsewhere, does that make them right? No. People focus on how horrible the 'N-word' is - I do agree that it is quite bad, but the white populace has also experienced racial slurrs, Italians are called whops(sp?), some Germans are called Nazis without cause, etc. These aren?t right either, but the same attitudes are adopted in those cases too. Maybe we shouldn?t give on word presidence over the others and work to wipe them all out.
Next, what does the thug look/gangsta appearance invoke in you? What do you think of? The look itself is the look of crime, who's fault is that? Who cares. The point is, why is this allowed to invoke fear in some while other looks, such as trench coats, are seen with open hostility and prejudice? Why is the kid in the trench coat called down to the office and questioned, while a 'thug', a 'badboy' type look, left alone to sit in class? I'm not saying whether or not the should both be called down, or if no one should be called down in the first place, however, what I am getting at is that what you do for one, you should do for the other. What makes the 'rapper's' culture so carefully protected? Be prejudicial to all, or better still to none.
To continue with clothing, it's not when it's 'baggy', it's when it isn't on properly that it causes a problem. It may not be everywhere, but I face guys with their pants almost falling off everyday. And when someone sees a person of this 'sub-culture' they are immediately reminded of gangs? are all rap listeners in gangs? Probably not, but the style is in fact made to emulate that look, or perhaps the other way around, either way, it still freaks the bejeuzz outta me on a dark street. Rave pants may be baggy, but the legs are flaired out when they are made, they fit properly around the waist/hips? Could you imagine if they didn't? Raver's dancing... Dancing.. and then his pants fall off from all the activity, oops! That would suck!
So back to the music; the image and the message it promotes. First off, many-I'm not saying all here!, of the 'popular' rappers today promote a very negative image with the arrests and such. Now, don?t get me wrong here, rock has its problems too, but rock stars in general are more drug related, rappers have a tendancy to be involved in heavier crimes. Now maybe this isn't all rappers, maybe the less known ones have better reps. But when a kid gets into rap, what does he listen to? The mainstream stuff that is made by well-known artists. As for the message, I can't say anything about the lyrical drug content, most rock has it too, and since I listen to rock, I can't/won't say anything about it. However, racist messages, messages degarding to women, other parts of organized crime, violence, these are things that we should not be condoning in our musical choices. A lot - again I won't say all, rap is littered with this content. Anythng that talks about causing harm to another is well? wrong, and by listening to this music people only promote a cycle of prejudice and violence. Have things like this happened before? For all intense purposes, yes. Should they have been stopped? Probably, but they weren't and everyone felt the consequences. Am I saying we should put a stop to rap? No, I would never come to such an extreme conclusion. What I am saying is we should put an end to its ability to impose horrible beliefs/ values/ messages upon the masses.
So the language of the culture? is that offensive? Yes! The 'gangsta' slang consists of curses, slurrs and other slanderous material. Does it have it's good points? Maybe.. but it's ISU time and I don?t have the time to find them. All I know is that when I walk by where a lot of the 'gangsta' types at my school hang out, I can't get by without hearing a large amount of swearing, and other offensive language. Again, other sub-cultures are discriminated against because they are deemed offensive, is it fair that another one is left alone? Again I say, same rules for everyone, no double standards, if something is deemed offensive it should be treated the same as another thing deemed offensive.
Now, as for Rammstein "causing school shootings" I have to defend that one. Rammstein may come off as a death metal, death to all band, however, and I say this laughing my head off, have you ever heard the lyrics?! Du, Du hast, Du hast mich. You , You hate, you hate me. I can't spell the rest so I'll just translate.. you hate me to say, you hate me to say, you hate me to say that I will not obey. Will you unto death's ..something- it's been a while, be a .. something, to her forever?! Never. ... Never. The whole song is about a guy that doesn't want to be whipped! Is that so evil and school shooting imspiring? Engel is about angels, and how he doesn't want to be an angel when he dies. Many Rammstein fans know this, but they listen to the band that dedicated an album to their moms, cause it sounds great and the messages are kinda cool.
K, so whether it be learned or taught racism; learned prejudice- like that expressed towards trench coat wearers; or taught prejudice - the terms we've known all along. It's still wrong. It's still offensive and while we are all striving to fight it, there should be no double standards involved. No minority should be treated differently from another.

So there's my $20.00 worth, hopefully you got something out of it- this is what happens when you're an insomniac! So in the end, like it as you may , I know I don't and I am entitled to my opinion, the rap culture promotes an image and message that is detrimental to the health/well-being of society as a whole.
*hugz to all as alwayz*
Ann-Marie -team 783
PS. a) I found the comment about your analogies and my getting them an insult to my intelligence, I got the fact that they were analogies however I found the use of that particular one in any context offensive and had to just side comment on the issue.
b)some of your comments to people being open minded and such can be taken in an offensive context.. almost a sarcastic or seering tone could be involved.. hence the problem with debates over the net. I not saying they were, but they could have been. meh. whatever.

[Maikettei]

You know what... no one really needs to reply to me anymore, because people are still not understanding my points. You guys come on a message board and outright slander Hip-hop culture saying the clothes make people look poor and like convicts, but then turn say I'm slandering you guys?

Ben Mitchell has said

"rap poisons the mind. Any rap, all rap, even pop rap, is noise, and needs to be wiped from the planet like a disease"

This is not slander? I am sure he has not listened to all rap, especially not the conscious rap that actually says something.

Thank you Greg McCoy for at least noticing all rap is not the same. A LOT of rock music has vulgarity and such too i.e. Tool.

" the nuns down the street arent listening to tool either"

I could prove it, but I'm sure you already know its true. However, you do not see me saying rock is crap. I know there is rock out there that isn't all negativity, and I know there is rap that isn't like that.

Quain said

"Punk is better.. its not all about Anarchy and hating the government.. while that stuff exists (and is pretty dang good) theres happy, feel better, love your neighbor, we're all friends punk.. "

I would like to know why it is good for Punks to be Anarchists, but when a rapper speaks out about injustice within the judicial system it is wrong. If punk songs about Anarchy are 'pretty dang good' why can't rap lyrics be good when they aren't all happy joy joy? Also, rap has 'happy, feel better, love your neighbor, we're all friends' type songs as well.

I've already disputed that rap is not music based on the fact that it doesn't often use real instruments all the time (my acapella reference). If someone has another reason as to why it is not music, I would be happy to dispute it at a later date, and in a Private Message or something.

Judy has said this:

I think it perpetuates a negative vibe and image, not to say that negative music isn't good- I like the dark depressing rock... but it isn't music as we have already established

If it isn't the music, than what is it? Anyone can say they think Goth or Punk culture perpetuates negativity, but thats only on the surface. People who are really true to that culture and are not simply using it as the latest fad understand the true meaning of their culture. Ravers who party for the love of the music and not the love of drugs know a rave is all about PLUR. People who love hip-hop culture know its all about bringing awareness to urban-dwellers. People only see the Mass-marketed and over-produced side of these cultures, and then make judgements on that.

Do not confuse thug-types with every person who loves hip-hop. Skinheads listen to a lot of Punk music, but no ones calling all punks skinheads, are they?

The whole N-word thing is ridiculous. I did NOT bring it up. Ben Mitchell did. And you know, he can say it all he wants. But he should be willing to accept the consequence of saying it. Freedom of speech works on the basis of the person taking full responsibility of their words.

I didn't bring up the whole issue of a black person killing a white person or vice versa either. That was Fast Frank. I simply made a comment to his and all of a sudden my opinion is racist? How is my comment racist and his is not? Ben, if you really wanted to make a valid point you would say that both fast frank and my comments are racist and that our justice system is completely fair. Instead of being biased about it. You cannot overlook his comment and say mine is racist all in the same breath. For every ONE case you give me about a white male doing mega time for killing a black man, I will give you FIVE of the opposite and THREE where white men got little to no time.

And about those officers that shot Diallo 41 times... yes, they should be ashamed. And because it happened a while ago does not mean it cannot be discussed. I simply wanted to refute his claims.

I made an analogy and Judy writes this paragraph about how offended she is about my Goth comment, which I made clear was simply a generalization used to get my point across.

Now I know you're just trying to prove a point by showing other sterotypes, but I take extreme offense to the saying of goths being satanists... being goth and having many goth friends, we all find this extremely offensive and absurd.. at least with the whole 'urban' convict connection there is basis on the masses, with 'gothic satanists' there was maybe a few instances that have been exaggerated in a massive hatred to the group.

She apparently understood it was an analogy but still felt the need to explain how offended she gets when people say these things about Goths... If it is offensive to use it in any context in your eyes Judy, then surely you can understand how I feel about peoples comments on rap.

The really sad part though is that despite you being offended by stereotypes people make about you and your friends, you still stereotype others. It's very hyprocritical and not at all justified. If you don't like people judging you based on your appearance or music choices, don't do it to anyone else. It's as simple as that.

Is it really a sterotype when it seems that the masses give it some real basis?

The answer? Yes it is. The keyword here is "seems." If you don't know for sure, you don't know at all. If you had some statistics or something, you could have a better argument, but you are judging based from observations that aren't even intrusive. You haven't made an attempt to understand hip-hop culture, so how can you talk about what it means? You said you dress the way you do so people will take time to get to know you? So you can filter out those with closed minds? How can you say that when you are judging people who wear Urban clothing? Once again, that is hyprocritical.

Ben put it very well, some groups are persecuted for what they wear, why arent others? Ben brought up some very good points, where do we draw the line when a "sub-culture" promotes messages that are against the grain, and not in the best interest for a peaceful society?

Why do you want groups to be persecuted for what they wear anyway? That's not very American. You are a Goth, right? Well then kiss yours and many other cultures goodbye. EVERY culture 'promotes' something negative. How on earth are you narrowing it down to just hip-hop culture? Have I not said MANY times before all the negative things associated with other sub-cultures? Why is it that you guys can so easily glaze over these things and go back to saying hip-hop is the root of society's problems?

what does the thug look/gangsta appearance invoke in you? What do you think of? The look itself is the look of crime, who's fault is that?

How is this look one of crime? That's really wrong... So now ravers represent the 'look of drug use' and trench coats are the 'look of mass killers'? People shouldnt be judged based on their style of clothing in the first place, Judy. By saying Urban clothing is the 'look of crime' you are supporting the idea that you are what you wear. I would love to see some statistics that say the majority of the crimes commited in America are made by people wearing Urban clothes. If you cannot find some facts that support your accusation, then it is totally off base.

are all rap listeners in gangs? Probably not, but the style is in fact made to emulate that look, or perhaps the other way around

"Are all Italians in the mafia? Probably not." <---- comments like that and the above are really negative. The answer should not be 'probably not' but a resounding 'no.' You do not even know thes people and you sound as if you think the majority are in gangs.

You speak as if this culture is left completely alone. Evidently it is not based on the content of people's responses. I have NEVER said that all rap is good. But I am saying that it is certainly not all bad. Also, do not attribute hip-hop culture with bad rap. If you feel you are wrongly judged, don't attempt to make things right by passing unfair judgement on others.

When talking about people:
Fight for equality in cultures, not equality in punishment.

No one sould be punished because they have a different culture.

Now, as for Rammstein "causing school shootings" I have to defend that one. Rammstein may come off as a death metal, death to all band, however, and I say this laughing my head off, have you ever heard the lyrics?! that dedicated an album to their moms, cause it sounds great and the messages are kinda cool.


The whole thing on Rammstein... I do not ever recall saying it was the cause of those shootings. I said that people thought it was, and I thought it was ridiculous that they did. The media decided that the music was the cause without ever even learning what the band was really all about. That is exactly what many of you are doing with rap and hip-hop. Saying it is the downfall of society without knowing what it is really about.

I'm sorry if I come across as snide or rude, but I feel a lot of heat being directed toward me for simply expressing my opinion. I think it is really wrong to come on a message board and badmouth rap to no end and then say someone else is slandering people when they defend it.

I am still very annoyed with the X-cats reference. As if my opinion being different is not a good thing for the team. Like I am all that is wrong with my team because I have different beliefs than many of the board members.

In any case, I'm done with this thread. If someone has a question they want to ask, take it to Open Thoughts and provide a link... or Private Message me if it is really that crucial.

[Wetzel]

I listen to rap. I enjoy rap.
I listen to rock. I enjoy rock.
I listen to techno. I enjoy techno.
I listen to punk. I enjoy punk.
About the only thing I don't listen to on a regular basis is New Age.

I wear the baggy pants. I wear them because I am more comfortable in them then in slim jeans. They don't fall down because I wear a belt.

Sterotype for what I wear. What I music I listen to. What I read. What I learn. The color of my skin. Its all the same.
I will let you do that. While you are doing that, I will observe you. Let your actions determine what I think of you.

I may be young, naive and idealistic, but I do think that people can be idealistic. Maybe I will become jaded and cynical, but not yet. I can and will make a diffrence.

I belive you have the right to sterotype. That is your opinion, and I will not say you should not be allowed to stereotype. When you begin to erode civil liberties for civil rights, it is the start of a long dark spiral into oppression.

Saying that something (be it a thought, a book, an invention) is 'bad' so it shouldn't exsist at all, I belive that is a horrible thing.
However, that does not extend to limiting the civil liberties of anyone. Everyone should have the same inherent liberties as everyone else, and that extends to their creations as well.

So they use controversial language in their rhymes. That is their right. I respect that right. I may not respect the message, but I will respect the person's right to make that statement or convey that message.

Freedom of speach is held dearly by most Americans. By limiting
anywheren it is an attack on it everywhere.



Wetzel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopeless Idealist