4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?

[Katie Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Ethulin

If I just tape a laser pointer to my bot that only turns on when I press the button on it is that legal?

Does what you have in mind violate <G11> at all?

<G11> Alignment Devices - Alignment devices (templates, tape measures, lasers, etc.) that are not part of the ROBOT may not be used to assist with positioning the ROBOT. Teams that use external alignment devices to position their ROBOT will have their ROBOT arbitrarily repositioned by the head referee.

If it doesn't violate that, is affixed to the robot with something other than tape, does not have an internal battery, is safe to the eye, won't throw off other robots (by color, frequency, etc) ... then I would say it's alright to have.

In any case, once Q&A is back up, I'd ask FIRST.

[Ethulin]

Originally Posted by Katie Reynolds

Does what you have in mind violate <G11> at all?

<G11> Alignment Devices - Alignment devices (templates, tape measures, lasers, etc.) that are not part of the ROBOT may not be used to assist with positioning the ROBOT. Teams that use external alignment devices to position their ROBOT will have their ROBOT arbitrarily repositioned by the head referee.

If it doesn't violate that, is affixed to the robot with something other than tape, does not have an internal battery, is safe to the eye, won't throw off other robots (by color, frequency, etc) ... then I would say it's alright to have.

In any case, once Q&A is back up, I'd ask FIRST.

Well some one got it I think, their is a battery so no dice.

We have just decided to use a gun scope.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by Ethulin

We have just decided to use a gun scope.

If I understand you correctly: you want to use a gun scope to align your robot once you place it on the field before a match; you can't! Rule <G11> explicitly forbids you from using ANY device for aligning your robot at the beginning of the match.

[ebmonon36]

It says that alignment mechanisms that aren't part of the robot are illegal. If it is attached to the robot, then by rule G11 it would be legal.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by ebmonon36

It says that alignment mechanisms that aren't part of the robot are illegal. If it is attached to the robot, then by rule G11 it would be legal.

Yes, you are correct: a gun scope is allowed on a FIRST robot per the 2006 Parts Use Flow chart, if the cost of the scope is under $400 and the total cost of non-kit parts are under $3,500.

However, let's not "lawyer" rule <G11>. The intent of rule <G11> is for teams to quickly place their robots on the field without going through elaborate alignment methods. This means not using devices attached or unattached to the robot who's specific purpose is to align the robot. The kit of parts has been supplied with an abundant amount of sensors so that specific robot placement is unnecessary.

I'm not on the game committee, I'm not from FIRST. If you don't buy my answer you can ask FIRST for a clarification and more specifically the intent of rule <G11>.

[Ethulin]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Yes, you are correct: a gun scope is allowed on a FIRST robot per the 2006 Parts Use Flow chart, if the cost of the scope is under $400 and the total cost of non-kit parts are under $3,500.

However, let's not "lawyer" rule <G11>. The intent of rule <G11> is for teams to quickly place their robots on the field without going through elaborate alignment methods. This means not using devices attached or unattached to the robot who's specific purpose is to align the robot. The kit of parts has been supplied with an abundant amount of sensors so that specific robot placement is unnecessary.

I'm not on the game committee, I'm not from FIRST. If you don't buy my answer you can ask FIRST for a clarification and more specifically the intent of rule <G11>.

Well our analysis of the rules came to the same conclusion as it WOULD be mounted on the bot. We will ask in ask FIRST thoughr

[mechanicalbrain]

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I don't know about you, but if someone's flashing a flashlight in my eyes, I'd get kind of distracted.

Wait if you have a user controlled light, nothing potentially harming like a laser, that wouldn't interfere with the CMU and was attached to the robot powered through the robot would it be legal. I mean using it so its only on when pointing at the top goal would it be legal?

Of coarse if it started being shone at another driver it would fit in what you mention and the robot would be subject to shut down, but legally is such a aiming mechanism against any of the rules? I'm also assuming that the light is sufficiently guided so that none of the glare of the light finds it's way to the player station. I think you would have to narrow the beam much more then a standard flashlight to get any real indication of your cannon position but it is a good guide if you either can't get the camera to work or if it breaks during normal game play.

[Rickertsen2]

I don't see the problem with a laser as long as it is weak enough that it will not cause eye damage. There are certian classes of lasers that are rated this way. Also, who says you have to use the entire laser pointer with the battery? There are plenty of places that sell laser dioded meant ot be powered by an external source

[KenWittlief]

you can make up sights for aligning your robot on the field. In the past we used simple things, like drinking straws or a small piece of PVC pipe that were attached to the robot, to look through.

you dont need much, trying to align your bot to within 1/4" on a wall 40 feet away would be a waste of time. If you can repeatedly align it within +/- 1 degree thats probabally the most you need.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain

Wait if you have a user controlled light, nothing potentially harming like a laser, that wouldn't interfere with the CMU and was attached to the robot powered through the robot would it be legal. I mean using it so its only on when pointing at the top goal would it be legal?

Of coarse if it started being shone at another driver it would fit in what you mention and the robot would be subject to shut down, but legally is such a aiming mechanism against any of the rules? I'm also assuming that the light is sufficiently guided so that none of the glare of the light finds it's way to the player station. I think you would have to narrow the beam much more then a standard flashlight to get any real indication of your cannon position but it is a good guide if you either can't get the camera to work or if it breaks during normal game play.

Mech,
I think you will find that the light source will be sufficient to aim the camera. You may not need your own source. Remember that an added light source will reflect on the face of the diffuser and send the beam somewhere else where you might not see it. I am assuming you are trying to aim a shooting device prior to match start. If that is the case, I am guessing that a team update will make that illegal while still allowing power to the camera (as last year's rules allowed) prior to match start. Just my opinion, I have nothing to do with the Q&A or the GDC, just a voice in the wilderness.

[dhitchco]

Ok,
on one hand <G11> says you can't use "alignment devices" taht are NOT part of the robot at the beginning of a match or at any other time....,.Fair enough.

On the other hand, if some sort of "alignment device" is permanently attached to the robot, then that device likely falls under the classification of a "decoration". Yes?

And then, under <R102> and on-board decoration can't affect the outcome of a match and must be in the spirit of "gracious professionalism".

Therefore, Perry Mason...case closed. Just line-up within your 5'x5' box of tape and pray you don't go off inthe wrong direction during autonomous mode; hey which end of the robot faces the wall anyways? Oops....

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by dhitchco

On the other hand, if some sort of "alignment device" is permanently attached to the robot, then that device likely falls under the classification of a "decoration". Yes?

well, actually no. Alignment is a function. It has a purpose that is critical to thats robots performance, therefore and to wit it is not decoration :^)

[Ethulin]

FIRST Q&A have answered:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=181

Ruled legal.

[Rombus]

Originally Posted by Ethulin

FIRST Q&A have answered:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=181

Ruled legal.

Actually that refers to an onboard scope or sighting device mounted to the robot.

This post:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=129

Says that lasers or any bright light for aiming can pose a safty issue and therefor may not be used.

[JamesBrown]

I would reccomend just lining up the robot with one side touching the wall and let your programmer take it from there. From the camera posistion you can aim you cnnon(whatever shoots the ball) and using the gear tooth counters you can get yourself to a posistion on the field with relative accuracy. THat is how 75% of the teams will do it this year(some may just count loops rather than using sensors) It has proven effective in the past and makes lining up you bot very fast and easy. With a gun sight you run the risk of damaging the sight or having it bumped ruining the accuracy. If you have every shot a gun with a scope you have likly realized that if it gets bumped a little then it will ruin the accuracy, there is more than a little bumping on the field. Just because it is allowed does not make it a good idea.