Flag Burners

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Simple: with our country and governement established and set up the way is it, our flag may stand for things like freedom and sacrifice

but what it literally represents is what America is: We the people.

The flag represents me, my family, my ancestors, my community, the people I work with.

There are 300 million people in the US, and there is one president, one admistration in authority at any given time. If someone wants to protest against the current president, the administration, or the government in general, thats fine with me

but the Stars and Stripes is not the flag of the government of the US, its the flag of the people of the US.

Ken hit the nerve here.

If you burn an image of the president in effigy, you are voicing protest against the policies of the current administration. People may disagree or find it a distasteful display, but the overall reaction is much less emotional.

However, if you burn a flag in protest, it is more akin to denouncing us as a nation. You belittle the sacrifice of those who have served and/or died to make and sustain this country. A sacrifice that we acknowledge and honor three times each year: Memorial Day (last Monday in May), Independence Day (July 4th), and Veterans Day (November 11th). You are making a statement that the world is better off if the United States did not exist.

Now the burning of the U.S. flag is not an illegal action (and certainly not in Canada by a Canadian citizen). But what has this person accomplished other than to try and impress someone else by bragging about it. Has he conveyed the cause of his displeasure to us? One of the great things about our population is we do listen to complaints voiced by others. We the people influence which policies we should be pursuing every time we step into a voting booth and select our representatives. If this young man would like to see our policies change, he needs to be more direct as to exactly what he protests.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Bemis

I think I agree with the idea that burning the flag represents a wish to destroy what it symbolizes. I believe that by burning a symbol of something, you renounce your belief in what that symbol represents. If they have a real, good reason to do this, then so be it. However, they had better not come to me and tell me that it's their right to free speech to do so, for in my eyes, they just burned away that right. I would also like to wonder why this person, who is, as said, a Canadia citizenn, would burn the flag of a nation he is not resident of. What has he to gain from this? I think he just wants attention, or else he would not be doing this and then flaunting it. The best thing to do with attention seekers is to simply refuse to give them the attention they crave, which you've already decided to do. In my eyes, you've chosen to stand for what you believe in, and thats good. Are you immature for standing up for what you believe to be right? I say no.

To add onto this, I love the irony of seeing Americans protesting against the "evil, repressive, power that is America." Why, if they only knew the reason they can protest is the exact thing they are protesting against.

The world is a crazy place...

[Bemis]

Man........... All that typing and you said what I meant in so few words. I commend you, Mike. And yes, that is ironic.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Mike

A Swastika is only six black lines in a certain orientation. By burning the symbol is in itself a symbol that you wish to "burn" the ideas and tangible assets of what that symbol represents.

Do I think flag burning should be legal? Absolutely.

Do I respect those that burn flags in a dishonorable manor? Not a bit.

If my friend were to burn an American flag, that person would no longer be my friend. To disagree with a country and attempt to change it for the better is an honorable thing to do, but simply saying "I do not like this country so I will symbolize it burning." is horrid.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

-Voltaire

Mike here nailed it. I quoted it for that very reason.

USC seems to be a magnet for certain people of extreme viewpoints. Sometimes religious, sometimes political, sometimes social. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I can't stand their views.

The one thing I always notice about such groups is their delivery. I've seen groups stand around with literature or signage and talk in a normal, conversational tone. I've also seen fire-and-brimstone preachers yelling and screaming about the destination of everyone within fifty yards (all in one particular direction, if you catch my drift). The former is generally allowed to stick to whereever they are as long as they're not blocking anything, while the latter tends to get moved to the campus "free speech area" (the patio behind the Russell House student union, if you were curious). As long as it doesn't harm anyone and is at a reasonable time and place, I'm not going to stop you from speaking your peace.

To apply it to flag burning, I'll put it like this: If you burn an American flag around me, you'd better have a VERY good reason why you're doing it. But I'll fight with everything I have to let you have the option.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Karthik,
Yes, the flag is just a symbol. The importance of the symbol is what it represents to the people who hold it high. The flag for me, represents so much. Throughout my life, I have attended ceremonies where the flag symbolism was explained in light of the event. At veteran's gatherings, you will hear that the red stripes represent not only the colonies but the blood that was spilled by the thousands of patriots who died to make us free. The marines at the battle of Tripoli, the sailors in our young navy, the soldiers at Appomattox, the Ardenne, and Guadalcanal. The white stands for the purity of the belief that all men are created equal and have an inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The blue field and stars represent the heavens and the right to practice whatever religion you choose. All together, the colors of the flag represent the beliefs, hopes, needs and desires of every man, woman and child who have ever lived. Those that burn the flag of this nation are in effect telling us that they have no respect for those beliefs and they have no respect for me or you. Were I to burn the flag of another nation, I would also be showing that disrespect to the people of that nation. It is not just the flag of the United States that should be held above all others but the flags of all the great nations, as in the parade of flags outside the United Nations.
And for those who will tell you we burn flags everyday, the answer is yes. When a flag has outlived it's ability to be displayed there is a very solemn way to retire it in honor. Those that have attended such an event will never forget the respect and spirituality that surrounds the final end. The flag is reduced from the symbolism mentioned earlier by first disassembling it in silence. Each stripe is removed and burned, one by one, and then the field of blue. Those in attendance remain until all vestige of the flag has turned to ash. The symbolism of the event is a reminder that this is a fragile peace we live in, there are others who wish to steal the freedom from us, take away our rights to happiness and subjugate us.
I applaude you for your conviction.

[MissInformation]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Recently I found out that a friend of the girl I'm seeing, is very proud of the fact that he's burned an American flag. He's a Canadian, and he's been bragging about the deed on his website. To me, this is disgusting and I want nothing to do with this guy. The flag is a sacred symbol, and for someone to desecrate it is completely insulting and disrespectful. The girl I'm seeing thinks I'm completely over reacting, and doesn't see a big deal about his actions. I told the girl that I refuse to be cordial to her friend, and as a result she's saying I'm immature.

My question to you as Americans is, am I over reacting? Or am I right to be incensed by his actions?

You have every right to be incensed by his actions, and I will not say that you are overreacting, however, your reaction does give him "power". Do you know why flag burning is an effective form of protest? Because so many people overreact to it. I don't think you have to be cordial (warm and friendly and sincere, that's what cordial means) to her friend, but if she values his friendship and you value her friendship, you should at least be polite. Sometimes I think people worship symbols more than what the symbol actually stands for. One of the symbols of the U.S. flag is freedom. One of the best things about America is the freedom of being able to burn the flag in peaceful political protest. It's the freedom of knowing I could, if I wanted to, (remember, I said, if I wanted to), go out to my balcony right now and holler out "George Bush is a complete moron!" without fear of being thrown in jail (I use this as an example only and Bush's name only because he is the current leader of my country, I am not trying to insult any Bush supporters nor am I declaring a political affiliation).

Just because I support the right to burn a flag does not mean that I would do it. Personally, I think flag burners are rather silly. (and I especially found the clips of Marilyn Manson wiping his backside with the American flag repulsive on all levels) If they actually make flag burning illegal, the number of flags burned would increase. Here's a link to a website about Flag Rules and Regulations . These are guidelines, not laws. Interesting enough, if you scroll down, you'll see that you are not supposed to wear a U.S. flag as apparel. So a die-hard may think that anyone wearing a tee-shirt with a flag on it should be thrown in jail because they are disrespecting the flag. And George Bush should be impeached because he autographed a flag (writing on a flag being another no-no).

Freedom is intangible and so it is assigned symbols for people to praise, to show off. But it is only an allusion to the real thing. An interesting, if controversial note, is that this flag that represents freedom was first created for a country that was not truly free. On June 14, 1777, when the Second Continental Congress adopted the stars and stripes for the American flag, women were not allowed to vote and in most cases even own land and slavery was rampant in the south (and would get worse before it got better). The fight for freedom was just beginning then and it would be an uphill battle, one that, to certain degrees, still goes on today.

Heidi

p.s. the U.S. history courses I've been taking have fully taken on the American Myth and the American Reality, and where I first thought it would make me more cynical about my country, I've found it's only made me love it more.

[GaryVoshol]

Karthik,

Although I too think it is deplorable that your friend's friend is proud of having burned a flag for a protest, I would encourage you to remember what you have learned about GP. He obviously never learned - because GP says there are better ways to get your point across that don't involve bashing.

You don't have to be friends with this person, and you don't have to hide your feelings. But you do have to act politely whenever you should find yourself around him, if only for the sake of the girl you are dating. She has to consider your feelings as well, and should avoid creating social situations where you and the flag-burner will be forced into uncomfortable situations.