Are Chief Delphi users thin-skinned?

[Joe Johnson]

Wired magazine has just published an article titled that I think applies to much of this discussion: The Secret Cause of Flame Wars

I highly recommend the article. I think that some of our problem is just that folks really cannot communicate ideas and intent through text message.

Think about it when you write a message. Complex emotions & feelings are likely to be misunderstood by a significant fraction of your readers...

...For what it is worth.

Joe J.

[Qbranch]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

It takes a lot for me to give negative rep to someone. But there's a few on here who seem to have no problem giving it out like candy.

Same here. I have taken criticism for posts before but I don't believe anyone has disliked somthing i've said so much they gave negative rep points.

As they say it only takes the few to ruin it for the many...

-Q

[LordTalps]

I would expect most people here use the reputation system with a fair amount of maturity. I've only been so much a part of this forum, as my postcount shows, so you might need to take that with a grain of salt.

I have seen, however, others using the system quite immaturely. A friend and another user exchanged a few replies, whereupon an academic means my friend proved the other wrong. The other user decided to "get back" by casting some negative reputation in his direction. What makes it worse, is I've seen a fairly prominent member of this forum (and a member, no less) do the same thing.

If I could offer advice concerning rep, think objectively AND subjectively about why you're giving a person rep. Has how a person said something been incredibly disrespectful? Not just deserving a comment about tone, but deserving a permanent mark for them to remember? Can you see yourself making such a statement and thinking you deserve some neg rep hating? Subjectively should be easier, and oddly enough it isn't. Is what they're saying offensive? It might be offensive to you if you're on the losing side of a discussion/debate, but unless it's strictly matter of opinion, SOMEONE is going to be wrong. Don't start throwing around hate just because someone proved you wrong. Take it gracefully, and learn from it, that is why we have discussion and debate...

Past that, remember it's a number most people don't look at. I know I'm going to look at the content of every post before I ever look at their rep bars.

[thegathering]

From my experiences, I have noticed that members tend to use the reputation system instead of the personal messaging system when it comes to differentiating opinions.

This is part of our nature, but as Talps said, I too think that to allow for a forum that supports constructive criticism, negative rep should be used when the user is being offensive in some way or otherwise damaging the forum environment. Issues otherwise should be handled through either the thread where the issue is or the private messaging system.

There will always be disagreements and even more so in a forum that has a high population of engineers and others that are not willing to stand down from their beliefs and accept new ideas. However, I don't believe that the negative rep system should be used to force ideas or retaliate against other people who may or may not have a valid point in their ideas.


As for the private messaging system, I have received only one of these from another member concerning ideas in a thread, but much more often received negative/neutral reps stating disagreements of opinions. The private messaging system does not damage either users (otherwise leading to neg rep wars) and allows for the users to respond to each other and discuss their different opinions.

I personally have never felt the need to negative rep someone for any action because I have yet to be personally attack or disrespected. I've always felt that issues with other members were better dealt with through either the thread or a two way conversation.

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by thegathering

From my experiences, I have noticed that members tend to use the reputation system instead of the personal messaging system when it comes to differentiating opinions.

There will always be times in life when you read or see something that will cause our emotions - whether for good or for bad - to temporarily "over-ride" our logical thinking. When you see a thread entitled "help!!!!!!!!!!!!! my controller wont download default code!!!!11! plz help!", don't automatically and irrationally bomb them with negative rep just because they are new to the forum. Instead, send them a PM or neutral rep explaining what they posted wrong. But do so in a polite and business-like manner. Don't flame them.

In the 18 months I've been here, I think I've only given negative rep at most three times.

Originally Posted by thegathering

There will always be disagreements and even more so in a forum that has a high population of engineers and others that are not willing to stand down from their beliefs and accept new ideas. However, I don't believe that the negative rep system should be used to force ideas or retaliate against other people who may or may not have a valid point in their ideas.

Disagreements != Negative Rep

If you present your ideas in a clear, meaningful, and mature manner, there is never a reason that you should receive negative rep. If someone goes out and posts that "Pi is equal to exactly three!", they are not automatically wrong. They could be limited to a single significant digit in their calculation, in which case this statement would hold true. So even something that looks wrong at first glance may hold deeper truth.

When I first signed up, I never thought that I would become one of the members with eleven green boxes of positive rep. All I knew was that I never wanted to have negative rep. So all I did, and still do today, is double read every post I make. I usually take anywhere from twenty minutes to two hours to compose a single post for ChiefDelphi. (This one took about 40 minutes.) I will usually write it out, reread through it, change stuff around, clarify this, take out that, and run the Spell Check until all I'm left with is a great post.

A lot of people forget this when posting, but your posts here on ChiefDelphi will more or less be here forever. Do you really want that post you just be made to be on the Internet forever? Once something makes it onto the Internet, its usually there in some way, shape, or form forever, even if the original post is deleted. Search engine caches, the Internet Archive, and the memories of the people who read it prior to being deleted are all traces of your original post. Post wisely.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

When I first signed up, I never thought that I would become one of the members with eleven green boxes of positive rep. All I knew was that I never wanted to have negative rep. So all I did, and still do today, is double read every post I make. I usually take anywhere from twenty minutes to two hours to compose a single post for ChiefDelphi. (This one took about 40 minutes.) I will usually write it out, reread through it, change stuff around, clarify this, take out that, and run the Spell Check until all I'm left with is a great post.

A lot of people forget this when posting, but your posts here on ChiefDelphi will more or less be here forever. Do you really want that post you just be made to be on the Internet forever? Once something makes it onto the Internet, its usually there in some way, shape, or form forever, even if the original post is deleted. Search engine caches, the Internet Archive, and the memories of the people who read it prior to being deleted are all traces of your original post. Post wisely.

Excellent points. People... please re-read what Art wrote above. The time he takes preparing his posts on this site means many things:

a. He cares about the people reading his post. The things he can do to make it easier and clearer for us to read, the better the post is.
b. Like he says, anything written on here is forever.
c. The only way many of us get to know Art is through his posts. We aren't fortunate enough to be located in the same area, so all many of us see are his posts. This is one of the only way (along with his masterful Vex creations) that we get to know him. Obviously, he wants to make a good impression.
d. He realizes that he is representing his team. While he represents his own opinions, he does so with tact so that his team is not embarassed by his actions.

Thanks, Art, for this note. We all can learn from it.

Andy B.

[Dan Petrovic]

I never give anyone negative rep.

If something is said that I disagree with, then I'll just reply to that person's post, not give them negative rep for something.

I've gotten negative rep for posting something that is off-topic, as if that completely ruins someone's Chief Delphi surfing experience for that day. Some people take these forums very seriously.

But those people also help this forum greatly. They keep thing in order so we don't get any flame wars or anything of the like.

[Beth Sweet]

This program is not for everyone. Thus we expect those who are participating to be of a higher grade, and we hold them to a higher standard as such. Rudeness, name-calling etc are symbols of immaturity and childishness. That is not the type of people who belong here. As I've told my students, I am not your babysitter. If you are adult enough to be a participant in this program, then you are adult enough to act like an adult. It's fine to have fun, it's awesome, just look at the "Being silly" section of our website. But there is a line between having fun and acting like a child. We expect the people that post on these forums to not only act like an adult to represent themselves well, but also to represent their teams well (see thread "What Happened to Class"). Bottom line, the people who are active on here are professionals. They are mentors. They are not babysitters and expect the students on here to be able to act old enough that we wouldn't have to put them in time-out.

[J Flex 188]

I feared that this day would be a long time coming. I hope that everyone who reads this thread or posts maintains an open mind about it, because something like this has the propensity to cause a ton of controversy. But at the same time, I believe that this thread should be left open because of the concerns that it raises.

For more than three full seasons I have witnessed the growth of ChiefDelphi, in users and in posts. I have also witnessed the arrival of many different personalities (not a surprise given the increased number of users) and as such, some of these personalities have been a direct contrast to what is usually seen in FIRST Veteran Circles, or what ChiefDelphi might have been (I am not that old school ). However, time and again I have witnessed the same arguments from the same group of veterans. There is one group who take themselves far too seriously and expect everyone to act in accordance with the conventions that they established, informally or not. There is another group of these same individuals that espouse the need for acceptance and freedom of expression while stipulating that new posters should take the time to read the forum rules, outline their thoughts and ideas and avoid provoking individuals. Because of concerns raised in past seasons, I am glad to say that I have witnessed a distinct shift toward the latter group. However, some individuals continue to maintain a collectively held belief that ChiefDelphi is a bastion of expression that can only be sorted in one form, their form.

Granted Pyro's original post was lacking in a well-formed argument, or even a relevant topic, but I see absolutely no reason in giving him 120 negative reputation points. No where does he actively insult a FIRST team, but he divulges his personal beliefs on the state of freshmen in a high school, something the same group of posters on ChiefDelphi have no doubt said before, only in a different context or tone. Why should he immediately be slammed for something like that? What I would have liked to have seen is someone posting about why that kind of reasoning or argument should have been left to somewhere else, or the fact that he should have presented some form of evidence or relevance about the freshmen treatment. I firmly believe that either negative reputation or reputation itself should just be scrapped in general. For someone who consistently abuses the forums, negative reputation isn't going to stop them. For someone who just doesn't understand, a PM or a posting in reply that is well-formed, patient and respecting of their opinion would be far more effective, despite the fact that you can now attach comments to reputation.

I realize that ChiefDelphi isn't a free board, there are rules that everyone should follow, but for something as trivial as Pyro asked, there was absolutely no reason to slam him with that many negative points. Obviously you cant track how many he received, but I would like to believe that individuals would think to post or private message him first about his topic rather than trying to discourage him in such a manner.

Everyone has a different maturity level in their lifetimes and they still need to be respected and to have their opinions heard.

There are a lot of great people who have yet to post on ChiefDelphi and a lot of great people who have stopped posting due to the amount of politics and incidents like this. Let's not scare them off anymore. Please.

Veterans, be smart in how you treat newcomers. Point them to rules, guidelines and above all be patient with them. FIRST and ChiefDelphi aren't exclusive clubs, indeed, they are meant for everyone to experience.

[aaeamdar]

Originally Posted by J Flex 188

I feared that this day would be a long time coming. I hope that everyone who reads this thread or posts maintains an open mind about it, because something like this has the propensity to cause a ton of controversy. But at the same time, I believe that this thread should be left open because of the concerns that it raises.

For shortness, I just quoted the one paragraph.

I was going to say something long, but then this durn guy above me meant and stole all of my ideas.

I too think reputation is fairly silly. For one thing, if you were truly interested, it's possible to give yourself as much rep as you want.

Recently, one of my teammates got bad rep for having his signature be 10 pixels too many. I agree with what Flex said. While pyro's thoughts were not well-considered, there was no particularly objectionable part.

To answer the question: yes, I think CD users are highly over-sensitive.

Paul Dennis

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by aaeamdar

I too think reputation is fairly silly. For one thing, if you were truly interested, it's possible to give yourself as much rep as you want.

Although the reputation system may be flawed, it does have a set task - and that is to show which members of these forums have posted a lot of positive posts which contributed a lot to the the Chief Delphi community. This is a good way to show (more or less) who are the people to ask for help, or who are the people who are "role models" for the rest of the CD community.

I don't know about other people, but I always think twice before I hit the "Submit" button. If I am in a bad mood and the post reflects it, or if the post I am writing is not coming out clearly, or if the post I am writing doesn't contribute anything to the thread, I am more willing to forget it, close the tab, and move on. Having quality posts is much better than having quantity posts.

Originally Posted by aaeamdar

Recently, one of my teammates got bad rep for having his signature be 10 pixels too many. I agree with what Flex said. While pyro's thoughts were not well-considered, there was no particularly objectionable part.

Giving someone bad reputation points for having a signature that is 10 pixels too long may be a bit too extreme. Sending the user a PM, IM, or email is a much better choice than giving them bad reputation.

[pyroslev]

Reptation does not matter to me. Mine has been all over.

At times, some things are blown out of porportions. Some are not. The thing is that some posts (and if I step on toes, it's the truth) people are tired and stressed and posts. (Been there in a bad way.)

Simple answer to the thread's question: People can be overly sensitive and overreact at times but who does not. CD is no different.

[mechanicalbrain]

Ultimately asking "Are Chief Delphi users thin-skinned?" is akin to "does the sky have clouds". The answer to both is yes. I think we are all a bit over sensitive to a topic and even the way something is said. This is invariably a part of human existence, we tend to to be a little of everything (sometimes all at once). Sometimes we can be very sensitive to a subject and other times we really couldn't give it a second thought if we tried. That in itself doesn't matter, what matters is how we react to it.

Of coarse we should look at our posts and construct them to be intelligent, well thought out, pearls of brilliance. Do we try to do this? Yes. Do we always manage? Of coarse not. And even when we do make such pearls should we also sanitize them of feeling that went into their making? I've seen many references to the responsibilities of the writer, but what of us the reader? If a statement clashes with our ego is it devoid of merit? I think responsibility also lies in the reader who finds themselves bothered enough to stand up and do something to first look at whether or not they themselves are possibly, as hard as it is to admit, being a little thin skinned.

Now onward to the reputation system. Many people mention various unjustified neg reps that they have been the victim to. They happen. However, I submit this to you. What about positive reps? How many of you have positive reputation points that truly say nothing about your character but because you made a good joke or some other useless bit. How many of you are victims of positive reps? It all adds up in the end and a person's reputation will show through. My only grievance with the use of the rep system is it really doesn't give a person a chance to talk. If someone posts something you thoroughly enjoy drop them a mail, you might make a new friend. If they post something you don't like drop them a mail too, you might find it a misunderstanding. Plus some of the people I enjoy talking to the most are people I also find myself at odds with. That doesn't excuse a person from rudeness but it does mean taking a deeper look at something we don't always agree with.

Many people on the Internet are infected with the God syndrome. We assume something is right or wrong, this way or that and apply it to what we read on the Internet. ChiefDelphi is, if nothing else, a community. Communities are made of people and those people bring their opinions and personalities to hopefully contribute to the group, this at least the goal we should shoot for.

I'm sorry if this is a little long and rambling but I had a urge to write down some feelings. If you read it all I very much appreciate you taking your time to listen. Finally in answer to the question that spawned this whole debate. No I don't think Ive ever seen any team look down on a rookie team and I hope I never do. Even experienced teams are made of rookie FIRSTers.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain

Now onward to the reputation system. Many people mention various unjustified neg reps that they have been the victim to. They happen. However, I submit this to you. What about positive reps? How many of you have positive reputation points that truly say nothing about your character but because you made a good joke or some other useless bit. How many of you are victims of positive reps? It all adds up in the end and a person's reputation will show through. My only grievance with the use of the rep system is it really doesn't give a person a chance to talk. If someone posts something you thoroughly enjoy drop them a mail, you might make a new friend. If they post something you don't like drop them a mail too, you might find it a misunderstanding. Plus some of the people I enjoy talking to the most are people I also find myself at odds with. That doesn't excuse a person from rudeness but it does mean taking a deeper look at something we don't always agree with.

That's definately me.
My rep got fat on the first season of Fantasy FIRST and it's fanatical followers who were so happy to have the game they dumped good rep (and a couple of bad reps by mistake) to any post I made based on Fantasy FIRST for a week.

[BlackRoboDragon]

I only had two off point rep point changers. One was for a cool signature, they said, it added. The other was because someone jumped to conclusions, putting words in my mouth, taking points away. I'd much rather earn my points, that way, it makes me feel better, I'd also much, much rather actually earn the negatives as well, then I actually know when I do something wrong. But some people don't really need to add or take away points for small things, and for when they jump to things, just send them a mail or PM, letting them know how you feel about what they said, or just to talk about it. But please, for the sake of all that is good, no more putting words in peoples mouths to take away points, if you're going to do that, just mail them.