Pinning? Apparently I just don't seem to understand

[Brindza]

I think that some people are getting the wrong idea about why i started this thread. and from reading my posts that i started it with, i can see why. I was a little frustrated when i started posting and it showed.
This thread was in no way meant to flame the refs at FIRST or Pittsburg. I just felt that we had a completely legitimate case for our robot. This thread was supposed to be one where we could, if possible, get the opinions of how it should have been called and how it will be called in future regionals from other teams and refs. Our team is about to go to the Chesapeake regional and if another team is going to be allowed to use this same tactic against us again I need to know so that we can have a plan for getting out of the situation.


Thanks for your input


Also, Please watch the video before you post your opinion.

[KenWittlief]

In the past the question of pinning has come up, and FIRST decreed that you can legally hold a bot against a field element for 9 seconds, back up a few inches for a second, then hold them for another 9 seconds, back up a few inches for a second, then hold them for another 9 seconds for the entire match if you want to

In order for pinning to occur you must hold the bot against the field element for 10 seconds. Since the agressor bot in this case was not applying any pressure against the blocked bot, and half the time was not even touching it - there was no pin.

I symphathize with the team that was stuck and could not move. It totally sucks when you cannot move your bot during a match, for any length of time.

Its all part of the game: you can build a bot that can man-handle everything on the field, or you can build a bot that is fast and agile. If you do the latter you must not let yourself get pushed into a field position where your bot cannot do what you want it to do.

The outcome of this is up to you. You can spend the rest of your life thinking your team got screwed, or you can accept that this is part of the game and build your bot differently next year to account for what experience has taught you.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

In the past the question of pinning has come up, and FIRST decreed that you can legally hold a bot against a field element for 9 seconds, back up a few inches for a second, then hold them for another 9 seconds, back up a few inches for a second, then hold them for another 9 seconds for the entire match if you want to

That is flat out wrong, at least according to all the head refs I've had the pleasure to work with. You must back off three feet, otherwise the count keeps ticking.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

That is flat out wrong, .

Originally Posted by =<G24>
Pinning - While on the carpeted field surface, a ROBOT cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border) for more than 10 seconds. This rule does not apply if either ROBOT is entirely on an ALLIANCE PLATFORM. If a ROBOT has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning ROBOT will be told by a referee to release the pinned ROBOT and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning ROBOT has backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent, and if successful, the 10 second count will start over. If a referee determines that this rule has been violated, a 5-point penalty flag will be assessed for each violation.

you only need to back away 3 feet if the robot has been pinned for 10 seconds. This goes back to the holding part of it. If your bot is pushed against a rail, and the other bot backs up a bit, then pushes you against the rail again you are not continuously pinned.

If this were not the case then everytime you pushed a bot against the rail you would have to back up three feet before you could push then again. Then you would be called for ramming!

[Brindza]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

That is flat out wrong, at least according to all the head refs I've had the pleasure to work with. You must back off three feet, otherwise the count keeps ticking.

Yes, that is how i interpereted the rule, however i asked the head ref at the Pittsburg regional if that was the case and she said that the count would start over once the robot backed off. I did not agree with this interperetation of the rule because you could pin a robot for the entire match that way and never give them the chance to escape or move in any way.

[KenWittlief]

The real engineering basis of the pinning rule stems from the fact that a stalled motor will draw more current than the breakers can handle. If your robot is held against a wall and your drivetrain is geared such that you cannot even spin your wheels in that position you are totally helpless.

If your robot has a few inches of wiggle room then your motors are not held stalled. You can rock your robot back and forth, using impluse and inertia to work yourself free.

This is why you cannot be 'pinned' in a corner. Your robot must be held against a barrier to be pinned.

[Jack Jones]

And there, my friends, is the crux of the matter. There is no precedent because enough precedent exists to support almost any position. Where is the leadership on this? Could it really be true that we want to see a pair of bots playing bumpity-bump for the entire match? Can a motor really recover with a few inches of relief? Can they really outlaw wedge bots, and then give cart-blanche to the bricks on wheels by giving them a wedge built into the field?

It is almost laughable, were it not so pathetic.

[KenWittlief]

If a team has a robot that cannot out-run, out-push or out-maneuver their opponent, then what will happen when that team is on the field with 5 other competitive machines?

Isn't that the idea of an engineering competition/game? Or do we want to go back to the year 2001 and play FIRST T-Ball again?

[Brindza]

I apologize for any offensive my comments have made. I had no intent to do so to anyone. My posts, I now see, were out of line and most of all out of character of myself and the team that I represent. There is no excuse for what I have done and I can only hope that you can accept my apology and assurance that something like this will never happen again.

It was a misinterpretation of the rule on my behalf and I completely overreacted. It is the referees descision and not mine. I repect the people that give up thier time to help with FIRST and allow any of this to be possible, I sincerely regret if I have conveyed a different message through my posts. I have learned from this experience and believe that I have grown and learned from my mistakes.


Again, I apologize on behalf of myself and team for our actions.


I am requesting that this thread be deleted from the Chief Delphi forums.

[atomikitten]

Hey now... one catchy soundbyte echoes in my head: "life's not fair, and neither is FIRST." I'm saying this even though it was my team that suffered because of some other people's errors. We're going to put up with a lot of crap from a lot of idiots in the real world; frankly, I'm just greatful to have experienced FIRST, where idiots and crap are at a minimum.

Having cleared that up, I can say confidently that team 888 had an overall pleasant, positive experience at the Pittsburgh Regional, despite the frustrations. To any individuals who made our acquaintances, please understand the team's frustration and try to look at it from our point of view--you were there too. The situation simply outraged us. This does not excuse our team's rants, but perhaps the rest of the FIRST world could borrow a little bit of perspective.

To tell you the truth, on Thursday, we felt that a few other teams were absurdly aggressive towards us, both in and outside of the arena. We were even subjected to repeated "speed screenings" because "other teams reported" that our shooter violated a velocity regulation. After three intermittent screenings, absolutely no breach of regulation was found. We were suspicious and a bit insulted, but we beared it.

I feel it's also important to acknowledge that there were individuals that were notably courteous and pure-intentionedly helpful to us as well.

most importantly:
I'm ready to put all of this behind me so that I am completely unburdened to look forward to the Chesapeake Regional. I can only ask and hope that everyone else feels similarly. After all, each day is fresh with no mistakes in it [yet].