Adult vs. Student coaches

[Conor Ryan]

I'm on a team were we have an all student drive team, in my own perfect world however I'd give the coaching job to an adult. Why? Simply because students don't do everything, they do most of the work, but the adults do some of it too.

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student

Why? Not my decision....

Would I rather have an adult coach or a student coach? Adult

Why? I believe that a lot of FIRST's goal is to see Students working with Adults and learning, I believe that this shouldn't be restricted to just the design and build process, the competition itself should be a joint effort.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? I don't think it'll change too much, but just in choosing an adult it may calm some of the high pressure situations at the end of a match. Whether or not it'll change the score, I don't know. What I do know is that whoever is behind the driver and operator is that they are trying their hardest.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Of course, it just is another example of students and adults working together.

What downsides are there? Not an all student drive team? I don't see that as a downside but some people may.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? If I was a young student, possibly. But with an adult coach I'd think that'd be something they'd need to address with every alliance.


Just my thoughts, I don't want to replace anyone, but I think an Adult coach would be good for my ideal team. (even though Ideal never happens)

[Greg Needel]

I have been on teams where both should happen for alot of the different reasons stated above in this thread. For me it comes down to this. I love to coach, i feel that strategy is still far overlooked in FIRST events and alot of the time all you need is a bot that can drive and a good strategy to win the match. That being said nothing makes me happier then to see an all student drive team. If there is an individual on the team that shows the ability to think out situations and react well on the fly, while keeping a cool head i always go for a student coach.

Typically the way i like it is a student coach where there is a mentor present during the strategy session to back up the students. Although I would still not turn down the opportunity to coach if it were offered to me.

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

Typically the way i like it is a student coach where there is a mentor present during the strategy session to back up the students. Although I would still not turn down the opportunity to coach if it were offered to me.

If we were to have a student coach, i would say the same. When drive teams normally have their alliance meeting, the team with the Adult Coach is always the one being listened too. I have rarely seen a student coach able to delegate duties over an adult.

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Adult
Why? He is darn good at it.
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? Increases Greatly.
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Drive team at least.
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Allows myself to have an extra set of eyes to be able to know how the humna player is doing, as well as the score.
What downsides are there? None.

[AcesPease]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
Adult
Why?
He was our winning driver in 1999 and is the best strategist on the team
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Helps most in elimination matches
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Yes
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
He Keeps our drivers more focused. A very mature student could do the same, but we haven't found one.
What downsides are there?
One less student on the field.


Bill Pease Teacher Mentor not coach
Aces High Team 176
2006 UTC New England Champions with 177 and 1124
2006 BAE Granite State Finalists with 319 and 562
1999 National Champions (best robot and drive team ever IMHO)

[chinckley]

Team 1254 had an adult coach. This is because only one student was a returning student from the year before. ALL other students were new. Our school is Juniors and Seniors only. He has been the coach for three years now and the students really like having him there. He is a relatively new teacher at our school and relates extremely well to the students, especially under the pressure of competition.

[dachickindapit]

Team 67, as far as I know, has always had an adult coach. I agree with the posts in this thread that point out that the age doesn't matter, the qualities of the coach and their ability to function in that position do.

I think that a lot of the aspects of coaching (especially in selecting a coach) have to do with the interaction between the (potential) coach and the students, especially those on the drive team. I know our current coach works very well with the students. He may be intimidating the first time you meet him, but he's an awesome guy who really has the respect of the students. In turn, he respects the students, which, in my opinion, helps him in his coaching. If a student is treated like an adult, they will be more likely to act and perform as one, in any function on the team. He is intense on the field, but he is knowledgable and fair, and has quite a bit of experience now in the coaching position. Another thing that helps is that he's been with the team for several years now. He knows how FIRST functions and if there's a question that arises in the middle of the match, he can use his resources from experience to advise how to address the situation. Along the same idea, I know of a team that showed this concept -- they used one mentor coach for the season and a different one for offseason. The differences in how they viewed each of these mentors made a huge difference on how they played.

To those who are rotating coaches: how does this affect your consistency? I know in the past, we tried alternating between two coaches, and it ended up being highly confusing.

*Disclaimer: I was not on drive team in high school. I was head of the pit crew, so I did have significant interaction with them, however. I also know that I don't think I could perform the job of coach anywhere near the level of several of our other mentors, if I could do it at all.

[JamesBrown]

Team 1568 had a student coach last year and a College mentor for a coach this year. The coach just like all of the other posistions is open to any one, preference goes to the people who know the rules and can develop strategies as well as those with the best attendance. THis year the best person happened not to be in highschool. The most important thing for a coach to be able to do is to get along with the drive team and communicate with them.

Last year I hated when other teams had adult coaches, I felt that they did not apprerciate other alliance partner's strategies and insisted on their own. This year however I had no problems with other teams coaches, they were always willing to listen and would either incorporate your Idea or explain why they think another would work better. I think that BAE had good examples of quality student and adult coaches. Icurtis developed winning strategies for 1276 and Andy Grady was great with incorporating every ones strengths and preferences into an alliance strategy.

[Dylan Gramlich]

this year is my second year on the team and it is my first year being coach
it has been quite an experience being coach
our driver this year had been the coach since he was a freshmen in our firs year and has done very well in those 3 years, he has also done a great job teaching me what i need to do as coach in my upcoming years
so i guess what i am trying to say is as long as u have someone that knows the game and can take command on the field u can have a good coach no matter if they are a mentor or a student
this year being my first year i was already given the chance to lead an alliance in the tournament at FLR and was able to lead that alliance to a regional championship(which surprised me
so in all this i am trying to say that i think that FIRST should make a rule saying that student coaches should be mandatory or that mentor coaches should be mandatory
this year there was a new rule stating that only drivers, operators, and human players could talk to the refs and judges which disappointed me because of the time i spent studying the rules and preparing for the competitions

[Kims Robot]

I have to agree with Greg, and say that this is pretty much the way we do it. We have a student coach this year, with an adult mentor who can sub in if needed(ie if our coach is off presenting our CA), or just sit in on strategy sessions. We started this last year, when originally we were going to have an adult (just for lack of any students really interested/capable), but then we found a student who was really good at it, and the two of them tag-teamed the rest of our events. It was a really nice dynamic, as they were able to learn from eachother. Im pretty certain we will continue to run the adult/student thing for a while.

But in the end, I believe its whatever works best for the team. If there is a student excited and capable, let them do it, if there isnt, have an adult do it, if you have a college student thats really really good and works well with your drivers, have them do it. One of our number one things we were looking for this year in our drive team was chemistry. If they could communicate well without yelling at eachother or not understanding things, that was what we wanted (and what we got! )

[BillP]

Team 624 CRyptonite has always used students for coaches. Some have done very well, others not so well, but we have never considered changing (even though some of the students have asked us to).

There have been a lot of interesting reasons, one way or the other, posted in this thread and, in my opinion, they all have merit. The decision about student or adult coach appears to hinge on two factors: Best candidate and best advantage. For my part, I have always felt that the competitions are for the students; a chance to show off what they have accomplished and enjoy the adrenaline rush of the competition (I'm not sure my heart could take the stress behind the glass!).

A comment was made in an earlier post about letting the mentors have some fun too, and that FIRST is about students working with adults. First, thanks for thinking about us and second, your right about students working with adults. Our thoughts are the same, but we prefer to work with the students "behind the scene" as it were. I get my kicks out of watching the students take the lime light. Sometimes they shine brighter than at other times, but they always shine. The experience of the leadership required to be the coach is a huge step along the path to leadership among adults, and in society, and I would not want to deny that opportunity to the students. I get my chance every day when I go to work and, frankly, I need the break!

So, should students or adults be coaches? It doesn't matter to me. I prefer to let the students take the responsibility but have no problem with teams that feel differently. Each team has its own dynamics and needs to do what's best for them.

Oh, the questions:

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Student
Why? The chance for the learning experience
Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches? No
Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole? Yes
Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation? Possibly
What downsides are there? None

And if you have a student coach, please answer the additional question:
Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance? We have had students complain about overbearing coaches from other teams at competitions, but we just try to teach them how to handle these situations. After all, in real life, you will run into overbearing people, and you need to know how to deal with it.

[indieFan]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

We have always believed in having a student coach and we have always had a pretty good student coach. When we get paired up into alliances, often teams will over-sell themselves and leave us with inferior performance on the field. Many times we get screwed over for follwing their strategy instead of our own. Sometimes, we folllow their strategy because they have an adult coach, and our student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach. I think FIRST should make a rule one way or the other and not allow either one. I speculate that there is some unfairness that comes about from having adult coaches as opposed to student coaches. I know every team has the right to an adult coach but every team has a different philosophy on what and how their students should learn.

I completely disagree with you here. To say that a student coach is in no position to argue with an adult coach is to: 1) Minimize the minds and/or abilities that the students have and 2) feed into the mentality that adults know everything - something that we all know is a major fallacy.

It took me 4 years to start voicing my opinion to a professor who's mentored the same teams the same amount of time I have. Before I simply took his word because he was a professor and knew more than I did. Now I want an explanation or I'm going to say that I'm going to go in the direction I want.

As for my first point, in 2001 we had a student who was great at strategy. He took whiteboards with him to the strategy meetings with the other teams and the adults were listening to him. It's simply a question of how prepared are the students to make their points. IMNSHO, the adults that do not listen to the students are simply there to win. I would like to believe that the adults that are there not simply to win treat the competition like they do the build season - listen to the students opinions and guide them if it's required. Perhaps some of the adult coaches (per Sanddrag's original definition) can tell how they operate during the strategy meetings with their alliance partners.

I better get back to work,
indieFan

[pi_guy578]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
I am the coach for our drive team, and I am a student.

Why?
Because, we decided that our entire team is to be run by students not adults. Mentors are only there for safety and guidance when it is required.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
Last I checked, FIRST wasn't about winning or losing, just inspiring science and technology, so we don't keep track. Otherwise we placed 5th in the qualifiers at FLR, entirely with student coaching.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Most definitely. Every member of our team feels good that they are contributing the most to the team, and not the mentors. We see a lot of teams where all the adults are doing the work, and students are just watching from the side. We prefer losing with a student run team, then winning with a mentor run one.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
I don't think there is a difference. The game is a relatively simple concept, every member of the drive team understands it well, and there is very little chance that an adult coach would understand the game better than a student one would. Also the drivers seem to bond a lot better when they are working with one of their peers rather than one of their mentors. This allows them all to be on the same page, and to think as one.

What downsides are there?
We haven't run into any.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
Never. I make sure that they don't push me around. We know what our robot is capable of, and how to play to our strengths. If anyone tries to force a plan on us that does not work with our strengths, I let them know. But, if they have a plan that I agree with, and works well with our robot's strength, I have no problem going with it.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach? Our coach this year is an engineer who was a mentor on the team, and who participated on a FIRST team in high school. I do not know if he had drive team experience. Our coach last year was a college student, and the year before.

Why? Just like choosing an able-bodied driver is a very important process, choosing a coach is equally important. A good coach has spent lots of time in the shop over the course of the build season, and has thus formed bonds with the other "live-ins" who become drivers. This year, our coach Joe was a crucial advisor and became coach due to his excellent ability to be decisive and his good understanding of the game, among other things. He gets along very well with students, so the age gap (not that big in the first place) isn't a huge deal.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I don't think the age of a coach has that much bearing. It's the ability that counts.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
There's a bond within the drive team that is very noticeable - our coach not being of high school age doesn't change that bond. He's a good guy with an interesting personality - so yes, a get-along-well drive team enhances team performance and attitude.

What downsides are there?
I don't think there are downsides. The only downside I can see with a college student mentor is the common coincedence of semester exams and Championship dates.

[slickguy2007]

Our team keeps entirely all kids on the field, this includes the coach (me). Whenever I discuss match strategy, I always look at the facts rather than who I am talking with. If I don't agree with something out ally says, I will make my voice heard. It does not matter how old the coach is. My team trusts me to make the best decisions in order for our team to perform well. I will never take a back seat in the discussion. Often, I try to lead the discussion when our 3 teams join together to talk strategy and I try to make sure that everyone is heard. That is how our team operates for field strategy, and it seems to be working well .


GO 1403!!!

[Shu Song]

Do you have an adult coach or a student coach?
We had a student coach through qualifications at FLR, and I (college mentor) took over for eliminations.

Why?
I was coach for the team last year. People thought that I was very effective (trying to be as modest as possible, just what I hear). When I came back to mentor to team this year, I told myself that I would not become coach again, and let a student do it. And through qualifications, a student did do the coaching and I was on the sidelines. I noticed that this student wasn't really strategizing before the match, and I was giving him the basic strategy for the match. He wasn't adapting enough during the match to counter our opponent's strategies. So I asked to be put in for elimination matches. Afterwards, I asked for people's opinions and they didn't seem to mind my coaching.

I'm still not convinced that my stepping in was the right move. No doubt that it made me feel special and I would loved to get back behind the driver station. However, in the spirit of the FIRST, I just couldn't see my replacing the existing coach being the right move.

Do you feel it increases your ranking, winning, and success in matches?
I can't really conclude that, since we were eliminated during quarterfinals with a sweep and the student coach held a 6-6 record through qualifying. But IMHO, I think that I was more effective. But this doesn't conclude either way about non-students being better coaches, I just have more experience.

Do you feel it enhances your team as a whole?
Absolutely not. Since two years ago, our team set the precedent that only students will be coaches. I wanted it to stay that way, but apparently the need to win supercedes enhancement of one's team.

Do you feel it enhances the accuracy, precision, and speed in driving and operation?
As I said before, I can't conclude that because I only have such a small base of comparison. Last year, me and the same student coach from this year were switching off during qualifying matches. My drive team was the more effective one, but then I was a student and so was he. So any accuracy, precision, and speed in driving seen during the two matches I coach really has nothing to do with the fact that I'm a college student.

What downsides are there?
Only downside I foresee is that I'm not giving other people a chance to fill this position, but when I stepped in, it was way too late to train another coach, so I was last resort. I hope to run this by my team again and see if they have any problems with college mentors as coaches.

Do you feel intimidated or persuaded by adult coaches on your alliance?
I can't recall a time when I've coached with an overbearing adult mentor. The adult coaches have always been open to the ideas of the other alliance coaches. Though what was said before about adult mentors dramatically overrating the effectiveness of their own robots happens quite often. They generally aren't the coaches for the drive teams, but they are there when drivers meeting to discuss strategy. That's why we always have our own scouting data, which is substantially less biased than their coaches.


Bottom line is that I don't really see any difference in students and adult coaches. I tend to lean towards student coaches because it gets them more involved.