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#1
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
Being a mentor on 233, 1592, and 1897, I have seen both extremes first hand. They both have their pros and cons. With 233, students get to see what is possible with today’s top of the line machinery, and engineering expertise. They get to be involved in operating an amazing machine, and get inspired. With team 1592, and 1897, students learn how to use regular hand tools, how to troubleshoot problems, and how to stick with the process even when their designs don’t work as plans, and overall, get inspired. With both of the rookie team that I helped start (1592 –2005 Florida Champs, and 1897 - 2006 Arizona Champs) we try to have the students do as much as possible, teach them as much as possible, but make sure in the end that they have something that they can compete with. This approach has proven to be a recipe for success for us, and it is always fun to beat the “233’s” of the world with our homemade bots. With that said, I think USFIRST is great because of the diversity in how each team runs their program, and as long as students learn in the end and become inspired, I believe that all these methods create learning opportunities for students.
~Shea~ |
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#2
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
Just like Dean has said, or implied, multiple times, this program is for the students.
The students on my team does a vast majority of the work. Mentors are there to keep us on track and do the stuff we aren't capable. Yes, we are spoiled with engineering help, but it's mostly done by the kids. The team captains run the show during design when all of the ideas came from the kids. The mentors step in when things get rough and start to slow down. During the build, the students do all of the CAD drawings and modeling. The kids put the thing together. We do ask for help making a part. This year, we fell behind and the mentors actually threatened to build the robot. Yes, it was a threat. The students do all of the animating on the animation team. The one mentor we have for that trains the new students how to use 3d Studio Max. Programming is done by the students as well. When things get complex and the students need help, the mentors are asked. Just like everything else. We don't care if our robot does well or not. The important thing is that we did it, not the adults. We're going to try to not rely so much on the mentors when it comes to making parts next year. There are going to be classes held training students how to use the mill, lathe, and other power tools, as well as a welder. Quote:
![]() People were amazed that we broke our shooter in one match, then had a whole new replacement in by the next. Last edited by Dan Petrovic : 16-03-2006 at 18:22. |
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#3
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
Team 66's build components:
-100% Student and Mentor Design concept (50/50) It is a very good and educational blend -Roughly 75% of the frame is student built. All the parts are cut, and screwed together by students, and partly done by mentors. -Electrical, the team has not really had a student really interested in doing that in a long time, so that is a void the engineers fill. But, if a student wants to learn about it and do some of the hands on stuff, I am more than sure the mentors would be willing to make some room for them. -Programming: I am one of the programmers on the team. What I basically get is updated programming stuff from the adult programmer, and I read it and try to make sense of it, and if I spot a possible problem, I tell them. The mentor on our team uses english a lot in his programming, so interpreting it is not very hard at all. Just an understanding of how C works is required. The result is that I have been given the capability to build programs if I ever wanted to. It doesn't have to be robotics related, I could do it right now due to how good the mentoring is. -CAD: there are some conflicts here primarily with the school cirriculum, which uses Autocad and Inventor, and GM, which uses something call CADkey I think. However, from what I've seen the engineers do with the CAD there, I am 100% sure it can be done in AutoCAD and inventor, if not easier than in their software (no offense to GM by any means). It all comes down to the FIRST program and student ambition. If the program is set up right where the resources are available to learn what students want to learn without screwing up the robot, 2 thumbs up. Same if the students want to build themselves. The learning experiences available are ~ equal. However, it is ultimately what the student makes of it that will slant their P.O.V. |
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#4
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
Our robot is 98% done by students because we had a mentor help with the panals on our harvester. Our instructor only helped with supplying his garage for a weekend build and make certain cuts with big panels on the table saw with whatever measurements we make. But in general, students completely designed and built the bot and our instructor would stand by with helpful advice and take care of financial things of the team. There's no scheduling build times. If the students want to build, they build. We just have to tell our teacher we're working on the robot and he'll keep the shop open for us.
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#5
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
I agree with the idea that the mentors should only really come in if you're doing something stupid, or with general advice like, "You might want to try putting a washer on that", or "watch out for side loads on those bearings." In fact, the parts that were mostly student built (drivetrain, electrical) this year were the most reliable, finished the quickest, and performed the best. And, I know I learned more and was more inspired by "have you thought about using and X because Y and Z", than "here's what we're going to do." And, if inspiration isn't the point what is?
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#6
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
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#7
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
Team 213 was built mechanically 85% by the students with only advising input from the engineers. I was one of the primary Inventor designers on the team, and I took a part devised from the brainstorming, formed a core group of students and started to work. We had a small amount of assistance from one engineer in the form of constructive feedback and a sounding board, but for the most part, I did most of the designing myself. The only team with more professional support was the drive train. The programming was a collaborative (50/50) effort between the engineers and the students. In previous years, we have much more engineer domination of the construction, but the last two years have been much more student oriented. I very much enjoy having this sort of setup, because when I look at the robot, I see our students as much as our engineers in the machine.
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#8
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
I know that most of our team, including me are for student designed and built robots over engineer designed and built.
If its "inspiring" for a student to watch an engineer build a robot, try actaully letting the student design and built the robot. It takes inspiring to the next level. If your team is going to have engineer help and laser or water jet cutting and all that, make sure that the students are involved and learning, and that they understand what is happening. Thats the important part. |
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#9
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
On a team where 100% of the design and 80 to 90% of the work is done by students, where still inspired. Our engineers look over and advise our designs they don't change or redesign. We ask questions and get answers from our engineers,we use the engineers and mentors as a guide. Although FIRST has some teams that have professionally engineered designs, the mission of a FIRST team should not to be to win but inspire no matter who builds your robot. OH by the way if you talk to the Pink kids which I encourage, they design most of that robot. Some finer points of design are done by there engineers which is true I think for most teams with engineers but the better part of it is designed by the kids. As far as the machining and fabrication part of it there mentors do that because of insurance and other reasons most of them can't get into NASA's machine shop to help or they would be. This is just what I know from talking to the PINK kids and I really don't like when people jump on 233 because there are other teams out there too that have the same sophistication of design as 233. Anyway I would just like to say inspiration comes from many sources and life isn't fair welcome to the real world kids.
My two and half cents, Drew |
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#10
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I don't know about the rest of you but our robot was 100% built by team 226. Our team consists of students, parents, teachers, engineers, and alumni.
In most teams, usually you win or lose as a team not as a subset of the group. The one thing I hate more than anything is working on a team and having others in the team taking all the credit. As I say every year, so you built your robot with just students, yippee, woo hooo, you built it totally with engineers or mentors, fantastic, a mix of both..... super duper. I really, really, really don't care. At least in my business one of the key things that the executive director at GM always tells us is that the customer doesn't care about which brand of PLC or robot we use to build cars or whose specification we used to program the PLC's. The customer does however care about the end product not necessarily how we got there. Just a little food for thought. Are there any other teams out there that built there robot as a TEAM??? |
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#11
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
I can honestly say that team 815 was 100% designed and built by the students and we almost won the GLR im extremly prouond of my team
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#12
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
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#13
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
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You beat me to the post / thought. I really couldn't tell you what percentage of our robot is student built and engineer / adult built. We all work together, through brainstorming, drawings on chalk boards, prototypes, Inventor, making parts and putting things together. Ideas fly everywhere and the best ones land on the robot and it would be hard to define who suggested what. There are usually several hands on wrenches and drills and machines and no one really worries about whose hands they are, as long as they are trained in how to use the tool properly. We work as a team, win or lose as a team, and continue to grow and develop as a team. I would welcome the perspective of some of our current or alumni students on this topic. |
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#14
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
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Cyber Blue doesn't only use this concept for our manufacturing subteam. Our website, public relations, electronics, and other subteams are all collaborations of our students and mentors. |
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#15
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Re: Percentage of Work Done by Students.
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FIRST is not advanced shop class. FIRST is not about the robot. It doesn't matter who designed and built the robot. Science and Technology can solve difficult problems, but not without people. FIRST is about training people to work as a TEAM to accomplish some (fiendishly difficult) task. Students do most of the work at Team 1676, but that's just because we are lucky to have kids who understand how to make stuff, and a school with fairly decent facilities. Teams who send their robot design out for fabrication aren't any less of a team for doing that. However I would prevail upon all adults involved in the program to step back and ask if a student could do the task. If so, let them. It's their mistake to make and their lesson to learn. Don |
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