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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:05
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli
Mike A,
I like all the different strategies that are involved in this game, but my head hurts after every match due to the incredibly fast pace. This is the hardest game I have ever had to coach. Thankfully, my student drivers are a lot smarter than me and covered for me on several occasions.
Paul, I strongly agree with you on this point. I was mentally exhausted after the finals yesterday.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:09
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

I like all the different strategies that are involved in this game, but my head hurts after every match due to the incredibly fast pace. This is the hardest game I have ever had to coach. Thankfully, my student drivers are a lot smarter than me and covered for me on several occasions.
I also agree. It's very hard to tell exactly where and when the opposing alliance is going to hit you. This gave our team an incredibly hard time trying to find the right point in time during the match to stop accumulating balls and start scoring. Too early, and we wouldnt score as many as we'd like. Too late, and we would have about 30-40 balls in our robot and get pulverized with defense.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 16:51
pakrat pakrat is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

I don't mean to call anyone out, but the triplets, 25 and 469 all seem to rely on that human loader a lot. I feel that if you can keep their robot at least 7 feet from the loader station, the HP wont be able to make enough shots. Granted, 469 can pick them off the ground. The triplets have accumulators, but they didnt seem to work amazingly to me (but at waterloo an upgrade maybe ) I know i've talked about this with my team, but keep those shooters at least 7 feet away is going to do wonders for your D
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Unread 19-03-2006, 18:17
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Here's my take on autonomous first.
I LOVE IT! The high reward for winning autonomous, combined with the new closer positioning of robots (no longer all the way across the long dimension of the field) has led to some of the most exciting autonomous gameplay I have seen. In 2003, you would see some interaction between the two alliances in autonomous, but primarily that was just two robots running into eachother on top of the ramp. In 2004, some interaction would occur when teams would go for the yellow balls to release the ball dumps early, but for the most part this was rare and wouldn't impact the entire match very much. In 2005 interaction in autonomous was zilch, none, nada. But in 2006, with such a large emphasis on autonomous, it has become an exciting and highly strategic part of the match.
Many examples could be found during the peachtree elimination rounds. At the start of our QF matches, both alliances autonomous strategies essentially mirrored eachother. 116/1533 would run to the corner goals and dump 10 balls. 1139/34 would dead reckon the center goal and shoot. 1369/1242 would try and hit the shooters to keep them from making shots. Here's where it got interesting. 1369 expierienced some errors with their autonomous, so they just spun in a circle. Both 34 and 1139 were never 100% accurate (they would either hit almost all their shots, or none at all, depending on their dead reckoning positioning). The first match, both 116 and 1533 sucessfully dumped all 10 balls. 34 hit 3 shots into the center, giving the red alliance the win in autonomous. Red alliance would advance to win the match. Match #2, 34 would miss all of its shots. 116 dumped all 10 balls, but 1533 only made 9 out of 10, giving blue the win in auto, and the match. Fearing the same result, the red alliance switched 1242's and 34's role in the next match. BOTH robots went directly for their own corner goal to prevent 116 from sucessfully unloading (Unfortunately, 116's autonomous failed anyway because it's stupid coach forgot to plug the drive motors back in after using their timeout to make repairs to the drivetrain ). Red alliance won the match.
During the Peachtree finals another outstanding example appeared. The #1 Red alliance consisted of 1261, 1414, and 1057. During most of the eliminations 1414 had run to the corner goal, dumped 10, and 1261 had sat in position 2 and fired balls into the center goal. But, because they didnt move, 1261 was an especially vulnerable target to opposing defenses. In the finals 1057 began "intercepting" opposing robots who were trying to slam into 1261, giving the #1 alliance an even more impressive advantage during autonomous (and allowing them to win the Peachtree regional).

Now onto the "starving" topic:
Starving may well be become a very effective strategy at the Championship event, due to some of the potential devestating shooter combos that may arise. But at the regional level, it has not been necessary thusfar. A vast majority of shooters need to be reletively close to the front of the ramp to shoot accurately. Because of this a "zone" defensive scheme has allowed for singular robots to block multiple shooters (even all 3 if the shooters can't fire fast enough). Running interferance has helped this some, but often it has only contributed to further traffic and less ability to get positioned correctly in front of the ramp. The most effective counter-measure so far has seemed to be having a robot than can score lots of points quickly in the corner goal to force the defense away from the front of the ramp.
By making the shooters miss shots you not only prevent them from scoring points, you allow any herders on your alliance (and their's) to grab the balls. Most highly effective shooters has been primarily human loaded (the exceptions being bots like 1731 and 435), thus when trying to stop an alliance full of good shooters, it is often to your advantage when balls are "loose".
Additionally, because of the human loading shooters, their reloading time is often the best time to play defense on them. Because of the field set up, with the ramp and the edge of the field, teams can be blocked into the area immediately in front of the human player. Many shooters prefer this area to load up, and even if they don't they are often near it when they are loading so they can be pushed into it. You can then seal them into this are (not even needing to pin them).
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Unread 19-03-2006, 19:49
sw293 sw293 is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
In the finals 1057 began "intercepting" opposing robots who were trying to slam into 1261, giving the #1 alliance an even more impressive advantage during autonomous (and allowing them to win the Peachtree regional).
This is the "pick" strategy that 293 tried with one other team (we were the shooter) in a qualification match in Annapolis. It was not necessary, however, as our opponent did not try to defend us in autonomous as expected. A tip of the cap to the alliance that pulled it off successfully; I wish I was there to see it.

In elimination rounds, we made at least two shots every time in autonomous (except when we forgot to change the battery before SF2-01) even though we got rammed every time, and on two occasions we made every ball we shot except the first. One of those was the 42-point autonomous period (before bonus) where 293 and 103 combined to make 14 balls in the center goal. Unfortunately, that match was restarted because the light didn't come on after autonomous.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:34
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Re: Starve Them!

The 'ramming' method is a good strategy in working against robots who sit and shoot into the center goal. It cost our alliance, numerous times, the autonomous period. While my teammates and i dislike it, i dont necessarily see it as a bad thing. sometimes, theres no robot for them to ram into, instead they hit the sides at full speed and cause damage to themselves. its a gamble that teams have to be willing to take, these robots were supposed to be built with 'ramming' in mind. thus the opportunity to add bumpers. Also, one team at Annapolis that caused damage, went and worked with that team to fix it in time for their next qualifying. teams should just slow it down so they do minimal damage to themselves and other robots.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 19:32
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not2B
It would be a bigger bang for the buck if you DIDN'T shoot in auto mode. Why let the tiny computer aim and possibly miss a bunch when you could wait and let the human (with a superior organic computer) aim and hit with higher accuracy later on. And it's not so much the aiming, but the decision to fire. In auto mode, the robot doesn't know it's about to get pushed... but the human can see that and hold off on firing.
There's a couple solutions to this. One is to mount the gyro somewhere on your robot.. if you get pushed, it's angle will be off so you can stop shooting. (This is the easiest to do now, as the gyro+wiring weighs very, very little. It also doesn't require any hardware modifications)
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Unread 19-03-2006, 09:54
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Re: Starve Them!

A couple of good points are made. Team 135 has a good robot, being able to move in just about any direction, picking up balls looked very easy for them, and they just rocketed the balls in to the 3pt goal. They also went undefeated into the elimination rounds.

But in the semifinals at Boilermaker they were defended pretty affectively. I can't remember which team was defending them, but they did a good job. Also, It's hard picking up balls when another robot is messing with you, which happened to them.

As for the alternative game play, I think what we have is a good reward for winning autonomous. Because everyone that shoots or dumps balls in autonomous will have to reload; consequently, some teams don't do anything in autonomous so they have ten balls to shoot right away.

Anyhoo, I think a strong alliance will usually have at least one good or great 3pt shooter, one good 3pt or 1pt shooter, and someone just for defense. But I might be wrong.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 10:42
Jack Jones Jack Jones is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meaubry
Jack,
After losing autonomous to the highly skilled and accurate 3 point shooters - .
I guess you missed the part about ramming to force a draw in auto.
And don't pretend is doesn't happen because it's not allowed or isn't GP.
I've seen teams get hit so hard it broke their alliance partner
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Unread 19-03-2006, 10:57
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jones
I guess you missed the part about ramming to force a draw in auto.
And don't pretend is doesn't happen because it's not allowed or isn't GP.
I've seen teams get hit so hard it broke their alliance partner
Can't argue with that Jack!
Tough one to call though - I was told that high speed ramming is still high speed ramming - even in Auton (by a head ref whom I respect alot)
But, what else can an alliance do other than guess where each others robots are going to end up in auton? We didn't include collision avoidance software programming this year.
In auton you can try and send all 3 out to score and hope they don't knock each other off coarse. You can sit still during auton in preparation for offense or defense - whichever comes next for you, or you can at least try and have one of the alliance partners "block" the way of the opposing robots. Notice I didn't say ram them off their path to their shooting spot, still all in all - I agree that starving the scoring alliance makes sense, if you also have someone on your alliance that can score.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:19
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by meaubry
Can't argue with that Jack!
Tough one to call though - I was told that high speed ramming is still high speed ramming - even in Auton

..Notice I didn't say ram them off their path to their shooting spot, ....
I think its safe to say that ramming happens when a moving bot hits a bot that is standing still. If two bots are racing to the same field position and they collide, then who rammed into who?

Nobody!

Shooters do not own the spot in front of their center goal. Both teams have the right to try to be the first robot in that controlling field position. If they collide on the way, then neither team should be penalized.

Now if you have a shooter that stays in its starting position and shoots from there, and a bot flys across the field and slams into it, THAT is ramming.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:38
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
I think its safe to say that ramming happens when a moving bot hits a bot that is standing still. If two bots are racing to the same field position and they collide, then who rammed into who?

Nobody!

Shooters do not own the spot in front of their center goal. Both teams have the right to try to be the first robot in that controlling field position. If they collide on the way, then neither team should be penalized.

Now if you have a shooter that stays in its starting position and shoots from there, and a bot flys across the field and slams into it, THAT is ramming.
I disagree Ken. If a robot is moving along in the "y" direction they have zero relative velocity in the "x" direction - right. So if another robot runs into them at high velocity traveling in the "x" direction, by your definition they are ramming.

Although, it really all boils down to what is considered "high velocity" by the referees. No ref will call ramming on a robot traveling about 5 feet/second or less. How much above that is considered ramming depends on the ref.

The head ref at MWR had a secondary definition for ramming. He said if you repeatedly hit a robot from the same direction 3 times in a short period (pull back and hit 3 times), he would also call that ramming. So he expected robots to hit 2 times and try another location the third time.

Sorry for getting off topic.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 18:19
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul
I disagree Ken. If a robot is moving along in the "y" direction they have zero relative velocity in the "x" direction - right. So if another robot runs into them at high velocity traveling in the "x" direction, by your definition they are ramming.
uhmm.... What ?!?! there are no right of ways painted on the floor of the playfield.

If two cars both run the stop signs at a four way stop and collide, then who rammed who? who was at fault? they both were.

If two cars both try to merge into the same lane and collide, they are both at fault.

Its like playing chicken - if you are both heading for a collision and no-one flinches or backs off, you are both responsible for what happens next.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:31
MattB703 MattB703 is offline
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jones
I guess you missed the part about ramming to force a draw in auto.
And don't pretend is doesn't happen because it's not allowed or isn't GP.
I've seen teams get hit so hard it broke their alliance partner
That strategy might work grat against some teams (maybe us for instance), but try it against 469 or 217 and you will get burned. Thier camera auto aim and turret mounted shooters make it nearly impossible to mess up thier autonomous.

Like Mike A said, You end up having to play a game of offensive catch-up.
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Unread 19-03-2006, 13:30
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Re: Starve Them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jones
Why is it that team defense amounts to hammering on the three point shooter, then leaving them alone to go get more ammo once they've shot their load?

I could see how pride would work to force the teams to score a point or three, but leaving those Howitzers to reload and score ten times that just does not make sense.

Ram (err - bump - depends on who, where, and when) them in autonomous, then stick to them like glue. At least a chance to win beats no chance at all!
This post needs no further support. Bravo! Far too many times have robots been allowed to waltz to the human player station to reload without any interference. IF THEY DON'T HAVE ANY TEETH, THEY CANNOT BITE!!!!

However, I prefer the get in front of them method to the bumping (never "ramming"!!!) method during autonomous, because if they have a turreted shooter, they can still compensate. If you're in front of them, in most cases, you still have a chance to block any shot they take. Pay close attention to where a robot stops in autonomous and compensate accordingly.

I'm sure the offender will also be keeping watch over the defenders and adjusting their autonomous routines to react to the blocking techniques - counter-countermeasures. I've seen some great adjustments during auton this season - makes the game more exciting!
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