how effective are the herders/dumpers?

[Revolverx7]

Originally Posted by CircularLogic

I think it is important to distinguish between dumpers and herders.

Being a dumper was good when you could hold a lot of balls and score them quickly and effectively. You would also have to play very good defense as a dumper and be able to put the 10 in during autonomous.

Being a herder was probably the best thing you could have on a robot. One particularly good one at SBPLI was 358 (happauge eagles). They were a very good shooter but i think the reason they did so well was because they could harvest balls like nobody's business and then turn around and put them into the goal. During one match, there had to be at least 20 balls next to a corner goal. Any team that could have scooped them up and put them in would have one that match. Being a herder is what is going to separate the great scorers from the good scorers.

Thanks for that. We tried our best to pick up some balls when we could.

Herding is deffinetly important this year. I also think that dumping is also good, but only in partnership with 2 good shooters. Its also a very good way to ensure an autonomous win.

[akshar]

in the elimination rounds at boston every alliance (121,233,1568) played had one dumper on the alliance, in Quarterfinals: 1757, in semifinals 1592, and in finals it was 213, 213 and 1592, could score in auto mode and they did, but the winning alliance had 2 shooter (121 and 233) and one defensive (1568)

but 213 was an awesome dumper

[Lil' Lavery]

In a well balanced alliance, the corner goal is often the key to victory. "Well balanced" has many different variables, depending on the exact capabilities of teams (such as the 357, 1902 example), but it almost always includes at least 1 shooter. An alliance dependant on the corner goal (just as an alliance entirely dependant on the center goal) can be easily defended, or starved of balls (in theory, in your opponents are scoring 100% in the center goal, they only have to return 34% of the balls you scored back "into play" in order to win).
In my opinion, the ability to score both the center and corner goal rapidly and consistantly is the key to victory (along with winning autonomous).

[Beth Sweet]

I found that while the "dumpers" were very valuable, that they were also very much ignored. We were only defended against once at Detroit (when both of our partners broke) and very late in the day on Friday at Milwaukee. People are so busy watching the shooters and the balls flying through the air that they don't notice machines like ours dumping in 30-40 balls a match. It was the funniest thing to me when, after the match where the other alliance was able to effectively defend the 2 lower goals our kids were like, they're giving us the compliment that we're good enough to defend!

[emnasson303]

I think they're just as important as any other team on an alliance; in general, a successful alliance has 3 robots that all together can complete all the tasks in the game.

[nifty]

i don't know if i can speak for the herders, since the onle ones (my team's bot included) at the BAE were herders by necessity and not choice - when multiple systems leave you hanging, sometimes its all you can do. my team designed our bot to be a collecter/low shooter, but ran into problems with our shooting mechanism and ball release mechanism, so we ended up doing a lot of herding.

dumpers on the other hand, totally win my approval. i know team 97 and 213 (did i get the number right? i know they were the "dirty birds") both made it to the elimination rounds at BAE, and gave our team a lot of trouble whenever they were on an opposing allicance. our driver was great at defensive manouvering, but we just couldn't effectively stop the two teams i mentioned. this is a lot coming from a team whose bot held teams like cocoa beach and the t-hawks to almost nothing in our defensive rounds.

at the beginning of the build season, i wanted to build a six wheeled dumper, but we went with a more complicated design instead which proved to be our downfall, but that's life. props to 213 for their omnis, too. they were my favorite bot at BAE.

[ZZII 527]

Originally Posted by nifty

i don't know if i can speak for the herders, since the onle ones (my team's bot included) at the BAE were herders by necessity and not choice - when multiple systems leave you hanging, sometimes its all you can do. my team designed our bot to be a collecter/low shooter, but ran into problems with our shooting mechanism and ball release mechanism, so we ended up doing a lot of herding.

dumpers on the other hand, totally win my approval. i know team 97 and 213 (did i get the number right? i know they were the "dirty birds") both made it to the elimination rounds at BAE, and gave our team a lot of trouble whenever they were on an opposing allicance. our driver was great at defensive manouvering, but we just couldn't effectively stop the two teams i mentioned. this is a lot coming from a team whose bot held teams like cocoa beach and the t-hawks to almost nothing in our defensive rounds.

at the beginning of the build season, i wanted to build a six wheeled dumper, but we went with a more complicated design instead which proved to be our downfall, but that's life. props to 213 for their omnis, too. they were my favorite bot at BAE.

Do you mean Boston?

213 and 97 were at BAE as well and had a pretty good showing. 1547 and 549 were also very impressive low-goal scorers in Granite State elimination rounds, hitting 10 almost every time in autonomous.

I think this game was particularly well-balanced; the 3:1 point ratio is perfect. Low goal scorers can make the difference in low-scoring or close high-scoring matches, and they are often able to sneak in while the shooters are being defended.

We went into the quarterfinals at Boston with two dumpers and one shooter against two shooters and one dumper. We pulled off the win, but it can be attributed most to an entirely different scoring mode: getting up the ramp. As others have said, the distinction between shooters and dumpers isn't as important without considering the complete package (herding, ball-storage, defense, ramp climbing, etc.)

[rocknthehawk]

I agree that the herders/dumpers are very important. I know we had a few matches where we dumped nearly full load of balls (somewhere around 45 points). A lot of the effectiveness of a herder/dumper is that the focus is usually on whoever the best three point shooter is, then you can send out your other partner to play defense on people defending the shooter, or basically get in the way. We did this, and it let our bot run free and score tons of points. Team 213 was very manuverable...makes me think what could have happened if we ran four omni's instead of two.

[PBurrell]

In the peachtree regional, the winning alliance consisted of a shooter (1261), a dumper (1414), and another shooter/defense (1057). 1261 was the #1 seed, 1414 was the number 2 seed, and I don't remember 1057.

What we (1261) saw in 1414, was an unstoppable dumper during autonomous. Several teams tried to intercept them, but did not succeed. They consistently dumped all 10 balls during autonomous.

We had some autonomous shooting capability, but could be stopped after a limited number of balls were shot. If we were not targeted, we did OK during autonomous. We changed strategy depending upon our opponent.

We then had 1057 serving different roles depending upon opponent. They did very well adapting last minute to some of our alliance team requests. All in all, it paid off.

In the end, I agree with Lavery, a well balanced team is probably best. If an alliance depends on one thing (shooting), they can be stopped with no recourse.

Paul

[Scott358]

From the experience of having visited one regional, and participated in 2, I've seen dumpers do pretty well in qualifying rounds, when there's a diverse mix of experience on the field.

Once the playoffs start, from what I've seen, you had better have 2 shooters.
This was a big point in our last regional, as 329 was an awesome dumper, but we choose a shooter with our first pick (who happened to be an awesome shooter).

Have there been any regional winning alliances with 2 dumpers (who only dump) and 1 shooter? Or perhaps even 3 dumpers?

[Martinez]

Chuck 84 is a Herder and I feel we are very good at it. Granted its not the most challenging or important aspect of the game, but we have a very strong nitch. A Herder can do plenty on the field by being the back bot, utilizing the human player, picking up balls off the floor, relieving pressure on shooters or the ever classical defense. Beyond that, it depends on your allies, your automode, and how well you play the game together.

[Kevin Ray]

Originally Posted by Scott358

From the experience of having visited one regional, and participated in 2, I've seen dumpers do pretty well in qualifying rounds, when there's a diverse mix of experience on the field.

Once the playoffs start, from what I've seen, you had better have 2 shooters.
This was a big point in our last regional, as 329 was an awesome dumper, but we choose a shooter with our first pick (who happened to be an awesome shooter).

Have there been any regional winning alliances with 2 dumpers (who only dump) and 1 shooter? Or perhaps even 3 dumpers?

Having been on the receiving end of a good old fashioned spanking in the 5th (yes, fifth) match of the finals, we know only too well how important shooters are in the finals. Scott358 is correct in that you can only go so far with a dumper (we dumped 9/10 times in auto). Eventually you have to have the 3pt scorers. That is why we had to select two shooters for the alliance. We were just plain lucky to get 1468 as the third choice--thank goodness we had zero turn around time between the last match and selections, other teams passed them by.


BTW 358--you have an incredible team. You did a miraculous rebuild in three hours on Thursday eve.and were rewarded with a regional championship for your efforts. Congratulations

[Sheepish Jester]

Hey spam thanxs

I agree with that it is ok to have 2 dumpers, but you also have to have a good enough defense (or a heavy enough bot to push others) to hold off amazing shooters liked the ones we faced

great times at the florida regional S P A M spam spam spam!

[Wolf103FM]

we ended up being a dumper at palmetto, (and thanks to teams 180 & 68 for choosing us to go into the finals with them)... dumpers are useful, may not always be able to score much, but if they have good defense abilities, and srong allies who can make the center goal, it can make a world of a difference, We learned that friday morning after keeping one of the best shooters at the regional (95) from making any into the goal

[Bill Moore]

Team 84, Chuck, was a herder/dumper at the Philly Regional, and they were an excellent robot. They were very quick, played very good defense when needed, and easily ascended the ramp at the end of the match; Oh, and they also scored 30+ points by dumping continuously in the corner goal. They did not seem to require repair as often as most shooters. A very solid multi-purpose bot.