Teams missing matches, something must be done

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Tim, my friend, I am a mild-mannered 49-year-old mentor who gets a huge kick out of listening to students tell me about the cool features of their robots. I love the enthusiasm, the excitement, and the fevered desire to build the best robot possible. I would gladly help any team in any way I can, up to staying in the pits late to help a team fix a robot, or sending email advice on how to raise money, or even fabricating parts for another team at a tournament. I view all FIRST students as my mentees. Having said all that, when our robot is on the floor the other alliance is the enemy, and I want to see their naked robot hearts beating a tragic tatoo as we graciously and professionally crush them. It must be a guy thing, and you are never too old for that.

Rick, If I didn't know better I would say you had plagiarized my thoughts completely, word for word, nothing changed. Well, except I am 4 years your junior.

[Taylor]

I think that as a team, it is your duty to have the robot on the field at all times when it is supposed to be (save the practice day on Thursday). Perhaps the most inspirational moment for me came at this year's BMR when 1319 got half their robot knocked off during autonomous mode. Understandably upset, the team picked up their remains and headed back to the pits. About twenty minutes later, I saw the 1319 bot on the field again. Well, half of it anyway. The team put the drivebase (maybe 2 feet tall) out there and played defense - pushed others around, got on the ramp at the end. Later that afternoon, the complete robot was back on the field, playing to its original capacity.
Long story short, 1319's alliance is headed to Atlanta.
If they had not competed in all rounds, I'm sure their ranking would have been different, they probably would not have been picked where they were, and would not have become champions.
Even if your robot is completely nonfunctional, it still can play a role. Perhaps another team can push it in front of a corner goal to play D. Perhaps it can block a ramp. Being there, getting in the way, mere presence not only gains points, but it increases visibility, awareness, and (in my case) respect.

[Dillon Compton]

I disagree;

Alliance selection is RANDOM; all teams are in the same situation. Apparently you had bad luck, but, if your robot is in working order, why not delegate people to go verify and aid your alliance members in getting their robots drivable, at least; complaining on Chief Delphi will only help so much.

We all payed our hefty registration fees, and we all want the opportunity to play our matches; believe me, it sucks MUCH worse to be the team that missed a match then to be the team who is missing an alliance member.

This is another thread about the competitive aspect of FIRST; we've been seeing alot of these lately. I think a problem with FIRST is that it is all to easy to get caught up in the competion; we have been programmed with a win to drive from a very young age, and in moments of stress, dissapointment, and weakness we all slip- to use a hackneyed term, "Just remember that it does not matter whether you win or lose, but how you play the game".

Perhaps this unfortunate alliance structure created some frusturation; you've raised this point in several threads now, so I can see that you must be upset- understandable, you guys had a great robot, and perhaps ranked worse due to these matches. That being said, does it really matter if you win? This whole experience, the entirety of what FIRST represents and promotes, is about inspiring individuals to make something more of themselves and creating a better world; when you consider this, our individual victories seem meaningless. People talk about gracious professionalism alot, and I think it has evolved beyond its' original meaning; no longer does this simply apply to graciously competiting, and being good sports. Gracious Professionalism means coming off the field after playing in a 3 v 1 match, finding the teams that screwed you by not showing up, and making sure that they can get into the next match; usually these teams are the rookies, the underfunded, and those without engineers or other professional help- so help them.

Come on everyone- let us forget our differences, our petty squabbles, and our losses and wins- let us focus on what really matters. Remember what we are here to accomplish- be we students or mentors, engineers or parents- we are here to be inspired or inspire, to teach, to support, to affect a change in ourselves, our peers, and the world; someones future will be affected by all that we do- whether we cure aids, invent a 100% "clean" energy source, or simply excite someone about something (be it robotics, art, science, or simply life ).

I keep saying this- we can do this, so what are we waiting for?

-Dillon Compton
Team 1394

[sanddrag]

Here's my problem that is the underlying issue of this situation and others. While it is true the main purpose of FIRST is to improve our futures and the future of the world, the main thing that helps us do that are the robots. Without the robots, none of us would be here. They are the attracting force that brings us all together. This is a robot building competition. If it weren't, they wouldn't give awards and trophies for it.

We can put together the kit of parts robot and become perfect gracious professionalists without spending a dime. We can drive that robot at school, and save $6000 and not enter a competition, and just go to watch other teams compete, and still be proud of ourselves, and graduate our high school seniors as better citizens than they once were. We can spark a flame in a child's eye with a popsicle stick bridge building competition. I'd bet we could just read "Code Name Ginger" and become better people.

But the truth is we don't. We don't spend months fundraising to just become better people. We don't leave our families behind to become better people. We don't stay awake into the early hours of the morning to become better people. We don't sacrifice our entire lives to not care about the outcome at the regional. We don't sacrifice our personal health to become better people. We do it for the robots; we do it to win. This is a competition, not an exhibition. In a competition, the goal is to win. If you are not trying to win, you are not competing.

We can become better people without all that. But this is a competition. We play our hardest match every match. We put dollars and hours into doing everything humanly possible to win. Why? Because winning is inspirational. Working hard to pursue the goal of winning is inspirational.

We play to win and I'm not afraid to say so. We become better people in the process. This is about passion. Unfortunately, among many teams, it seems to be dwindling.

[gobeavs]

Isn't the FIRST experience about overcoming adversity? One of the coolest moments of our Portland regional experience was our alliance being a robot down and still winning the match. Life isn't always fair. Being responsible and passionate we will probably have to pick up others' slack often. Though I understand your frustration.

[OZ_341]

This has always been a part of the FIRST experience.

We expect that this will happen and send out people to check-in with upcoming partners to see if they need help getting ready for the match. (Even if they are veterans with a machine that is better than ours) Sometimes they might need a kit part that you have as a spare or a tool to help make a repair.

In the past we have also sent programmers to all of our Rookie partners to ensure that they have a working autonomous mode. Communicate with your partners often before the match and you will have fewer surprises.

But even with this approach you will be the victim on occasion. Its just another part of the challenge. (IMHO)

Best of luck with the remainder of the regular season.

[Nuttyman54]

One thing I will never forget this year is Team 114 comming over to us before our match with them and asking how it was going. It was not going well. The entire left side of our drivetrain was not working (sprocket problems). They were on the floor with us looking at the problem. About 5 minutes before the match we told them we could attempt a quick fix to get it back out, but we couldn't guarantee it would survive the match. Their response: Skip the match if you have to, but fix it right the first time.

I agree with others in this thread that having a backup robot/ kitbot (akin to the strechers one year). I also agree that it is not fair to the alliance partners. But you CANNOT assume or expect everyone to have a working robot. They may have gotten slammed in the last match and have to unbend their frame. They may have gotten some magic smoke out of their processor. Whatever the reason, things break, and it tends to be at the worst possible time, and you can't necessarily hold the team responsible.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Sanddrag,
It is unfortunate for teams not to make it to a match but sometimes it is just going to happen. Someone on every team should be assigned to check up on all robots in your next match(es). I don't know about you, but we don't want to win because the other team didn't show up. We will play and if we win, so be it, but we don't have to like it. And if I help an alliance opponent, you better bet I want them to come out and play their best against me. It is why we showed up in the first place.

[MikeDubreuil]

I thought this was an interesting fact from the Boston Regional from the head referee.
"Even with 14 out of the 44 teams at the Boston regional being rookies not one robot missed a match."

[robochick1319]

I know from experience that making it to matches is not an easy task. In Purdue the matches were literally back to back!! We got back from a match and we were already on our third call for the next match before we could even get the robot on the table to change the battery!!

I totally understand why teams can't make it to matches and don't worry guys! It is possible to win 2 v 3. We did it in Florida when our partner was gone. We just changed our strategy and escaped with a win and decent ranking points.

I appreciate though when teams tell us they can't make it. At least we have time to change our strategy to accommodate. These robots are going to break, whether we like it or not. We just have to make the best of it!

[petek]

I suggest:

1. Find out which teams are struggling on Thursday and help them. Team 237 did this in Chesapeake and made a big difference for several teams. In one case, they worked on a robot right up until match time on Friday; we finished inspection in queuing, and I put the sticker on it as the team placed their robot in the starting box.

2. Make it a point to find out if your alliance partners are having problems as soon as you get your match list Friday morning. If they are, offer your assistance. Not just for the first match, but keep checking with your partners a match or two ahead as the day goes on.

Your scouting organization should be doing these things already. If they aren't here's an opportunity for them to expand their contribution.

[GaryVoshol]

An interesting topic. There were robots that were not able to take the field on Friday morning at both GLR and Detroit.

I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)

Incidentally, in Q3 at Detroit, 123's bot won the match single-handedly - it can be done.

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

... I think there needs to be a distinction made between bots that break, and bots that never made it in the first place. Those that didn't make a complete/correct robot during 6 weeks of build, and can't complete it on Thurdsay, should not get points for rounds in which they can't compete, until they finally get their bot on the floor. Yes, that means on Friday someone needs to keep track of a list of teams and check them off when they report to the floor. (Although I can see an easy way around that - you put a non-functional robot on the field to avoid a DQ. So I don't know if that rule would work.)

The lead queuer normally keeps a list of robots that have not reported for queuing calls.

Some non-functional robots are not eligible to be put on the the field because they have not passed inspection, or because they have been damaged in a previous match, requiring repair and re-inspection.

Regarding a rules change to treat robots that fail to report for queuing because they have not passed initial inspection differently from those that fail to report because of damage during a previous match: the effect would be to apply a different penalty for failure to complete robot fabrication prior to the event. Such a penalty might be unfair to teams that have a non-compliant robot due to factors they cannot control, such as damage during shipping.

As currently written, compliance with the fabrication schedule rules (<R15> through <R20>) cannot be directly monitored by FIRST staff or volunteers.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

The suggestion to help your alliance partners is a good one - but it doesn't solve the problem of those early Friday matches. The schedules aren't distributed far enough in advance - teams come to the field for the first several rounds without even having a strategy defined, much less knowing whether or not the partner's robot is functional. If qualifying match schedules could be passed out on Thursday afternoon, teams could begin to consult their alliance partners before pits close Thursday evening, offering help where needed.

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked HATCH to help come up with a way so that all the matches can be scheduled before the regional (HATCH = The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) Currently the problem is that you can only have one open match schedule at a time or so I have seen. Obviously practice schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it.

And Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it short by half a day.

[Jherbie53]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

While this is a very good idea theres an issue with this and for years has not been resolved and personally I really think that its time FIRST asked
the HATCH (The software they use for IFI Comms, Scoring, Awards Listing Rankings etc.) The Problem is that you can only have one open Match Schedule at a time. Obviously Practice Schedules comes first. After thursdays matches have been run through then a Qualifying schedule can be created. I mean maybe you can have 2 open schedules at a time but I doubt it. Instead of having the schedules ready by thursday afternoon how about having schedules when the regional comes to being one week away and have it mailed to the competing teams. How well would this work instead of cutting it sort by half a day.

That sounds like a good idea. Having the match schedule on the Monday before would allow everyone to see who the play with or against, and help them fix any problems that they might have. Another reason its good is that you can scout better and have more strategy during qualifying matches.

Anyhoo, back to the real topic. Robots breaking is a part of the game. Not having everyone out there is not good, but it happens. Finally, I think that you don't get any points if you don't have a human player out during the match, but I think that might of changed from past years.