The Niagara Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?

[Nick Bailey]

this brings up something else that i noticed with the triplets and 25. while being human loaded, an opposing robot sometimes parked behind them, preventing them from getting out of the corners of the field. this gave all of these teams problems getting out to get to the other side of the field to score. however, all of the four teams were able to push their way out. so this slowed them down, but only for a second or two.

45 did this with 1503 and it seemed to work for us. 1503 was able to only score 3 balls in autonomous before going back to load. During this time 45 parked sideways in front of them and, with some skill from our driver, did not let them pass the centerline the rest of the match. This may work for one triplet but I don't think it would work for 2.

[Kyle Love]

Originally Posted by Nick Bailey

45 did this with 1503 and it seemed to work for us. 1503 was able to only score 3 balls in autonomous before going back to load. During this time 45 parked sideways in front of them and, with some skill from our driver, did not let them pass the centerline the rest of the match. This may work for one triplet but I don't think it would work for 2.

Also, I heard they did not hit us in low gear, if they were in low gear, I feel as if they could have tipped us over or twisted us around and have gotten by us. But definitely, trapping in the corner is the easiest way to shut them down.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Nick Bailey

45 did this with 1503 and it seemed to work for us. 1503 was able to only score 3 balls in autonomous before going back to load. During this time 45 parked sideways in front of them and, with some skill from our driver, did not let them pass the centerline the rest of the match. This may work for one triplet but I don't think it would work for 2.

Notice also the way that the triplets played later matches, not allowing their robots to become trapped in the 1-point goal area by human-loading from a longer distance, at a 45° angle to the ramp. That left them plenty of room to escape, if needed, and also left them in a convenient defensive position.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by pakrat

You can stop the triplets auto mode, I saw Swat or 610 do it at waterloo.

We were able to stop one of them consistently in the final, It seemed a lot easier to push them in auto then in normal play . Both times we were able to push 1503 in a circle, but they ran good interference for 1114, allowing them to shoot and score. SWAT was busy winning auto for us dumping in the lower goal .

[abrockhoff]

I don't think that the Niagara triplets style of a build season should be supported by FIRST. Three teams building the same robot does nothing except increase the chance of that robot design winning the championship. If they are really as good as everyone says they are, then this is only a result of the shared resources of three teams creating a single robot design, by themselves I doubt these teams could achieve such results. If you want to have a large member base for diverse design ideas, then create a single, large team, don't increase your probability of winning by acting as a single team and building three identical robots.

I don't mean to start any rants, but think about it for a second. Imagine if a veteran team split up and created the same robot on each team, entering the three of them into the competition, and then won with the three of them on an alliance. There would probably quite an uproar from the rest of the community. The Niagara Triplets system is just a step in the direction of a team monopoly on championships.

Obviously what they did is not against any rules, and this post is just an opinion, but I'm curious as what other's think about how these teams built their robots.

[Freddy Schurr]

Well, I think that any team that gets over the 6 week build process is the best team. Also the top 3 teams are the ones who win the National Competition.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by abrockhoff

I don't think that the Niagara triplets style of a build season should be supported by FIRST. Three teams building the same robot does nothing except increase the chance of that robot design winning the championship. If they are really as good as everyone says they are, then this is only a result of the shared resources of three teams creating a single robot design, by themselves I doubt these teams could achieve such results. If you want to have a large member base for diverse design ideas, then create a single, large team, don't increase your probability of winning by acting as a single team and building three identical robots.

I don't mean to start any rants, but think about it for a second. Imagine if a veteran team split up and created the same robot on each team, entering the three of them into the competition, and then won with the three of them on an alliance. There would probably quite an uproar from the rest of the community. The Niagara Triplets system is just a step in the direction of a team monopoly on championships.

Obviously what they did is not against any rules, and this post is just an opinion, but I'm curious as what other's think about how these teams built their robots.

that doesn't sound like cheating to me. that just sounds like a good strategy. if we want to eliminate 'build season styles' that increase the likelihood of a team winning, then why don't we outlaw lathes, mills, welders, etc; or dis-allow parts bought from anywhere but home depot or lowes (no not even ACE hardware )? its been said before, but i'll say it again:

Originally Posted by Dean Kamen

FIRST isn't supposed to be fair.

additionally, veteran teams split up all the time. teams 494, 710, and 64 have all spun off different teams, and 494 and 70 (there spin-off team) fielded identical robots. these veteran teams spin-off for the same reason that other teams collaborate: because they've found that it allows them to reach more students. and that, i feel, is definitely a 'winning' style of build season.

[Conor Ryan]

Originally Posted by sw293

987 is a fine robot and it would not be proper to say they were "carried" to victory on any alliance (please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I ever said that they were). However, 25 didn't get to play with 987 in every match of qualification where they were dropping 81 per match.

Just to add to that, 25 had one of the hardest match sheets I have ever seen.

Some of the highlight matches...
Versus 399 and 1027; 399; 79; 987; 1527; 1013 and 8; 1538 and 987; 1027; 60. 9 of our 11 qualifying matches had very viable opponents. In Semi's 25 went up against 399 and 1027, then in finals 25 went up against 1572, 1527, and 60...all very good opponents.

NJ was no cakewalk itself. Matches against, 75 and 87; 303; 102 and 1403 (score was disputed, but 25 is agreed to have won); 1228 1279 and 1048; 563 224; 522. QF was 11, 88, 225.
SF was 563 293 1807.
Finals were 375 486 1860.

I mean I know the triplets have had some hard competition, but do not go saying that 25 had a cakewalk into winning these two regionals.

The other fact is, 25 simply hasn't been beaten yet, each of the triplets have lost a match, and none are yet to go undefeated at any regional, except for 1114 at Waterloo. 25 is deserving of the top spot, and any of the triplets can fill in behind.

All in all, I'd take any of the 4 robots on my alliance any day of the week.

[slickguy2007]

Originally Posted by abrockhoff

I don't think that the Niagara triplets style of a build season should be supported by FIRST. Three teams building the same robot does nothing except increase the chance of that robot design winning the championship. If they are really as good as everyone says they are, then this is only a result of the shared resources of three teams creating a single robot design, by themselves I doubt these teams could achieve such results. If you want to have a large member base for diverse design ideas, then create a single, large team, don't increase your probability of winning by acting as a single team and building three identical robots.

I don't mean to start any rants, but think about it for a second. Imagine if a veteran team split up and created the same robot on each team, entering the three of them into the competition, and then won with the three of them on an alliance. There would probably quite an uproar from the rest of the community. The Niagara Triplets system is just a step in the direction of a team monopoly on championships.

Obviously what they did is not against any rules, and this post is just an opinion, but I'm curious as what other's think about how these teams built their robots.

In the interest of not having a repetitive debate, I humbly refer you to this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44797

Not trying to disrespect or shut your point down, just trying not to have the same debate in different threads.


GO 1403!!!

[abrockhoff]

I didn't mean to come off quite so harshly, what I was trying to get at is that FIRST has always been about different teams solving problems differently, then competing to see whose ideas were the best. Having three identical robots seems to take away from that, focusing more on a "let's just win some competitions" attitude, and getting away from what FIRST is really all about, teaching and getting kids excited about technical fields like engineering and computer sciences. I'm not trying to chastise the Niagra teams, they have a legitimate and perfectly legal strategy, it just seems that if they win and other teams follow their example next year FIRST will have lost something that its always had.

--Without any intention of sparking a debate
abrockhoff

[Lil' Lavery]

Are the triplets the best robots in FIRST? I would tend to say no, but I havn't seen them in person. I will say that the triplets are the best "perimeter shooters" I know of.
Additionally there is no way to tell, not even Atlanta. With any form of alliance structure you can often determine which alliance is the best, but very rarely which team is the best.
Team 25 is having arguably the best regional season, ever. 31-0, 2 regional championships, a regional chairmans, woodie flowers finalist award, and the list goes on. 1114 and 1503 have won 3 regionals together. 1680 has kicked some serious butt as well. 254 is dominant as usual. Etc etc etc
As mentioned, the triplets are NOT unstoppable. 45 shut down 1503 in Q93 in GTR. Did 1503 use low gear? Only 1503 knows. As Paul Copioli mentioned in another thread, the "Division by Chicken" alliance was in far from top condition in SF matches 2 and 3. 229's shooter was busted, and 4 was expieriencing several problems (they didn't even get their robot until friday of the regional due to a shipping fiasco). Would 229, 217, and 4 have won out if they were in optimal condition? Nobody knows.
Alot has been said about playing defense against human loading robots. Even I have made this mistake in other posts, but remember this. There is no "Human loading zone" in this year's game. You can load a robot wherever on the field you so chose. Sure, closer may be a higher % shot, but it's not the only space you can load. Robbie, 116's excellent HP, managed to load one ball (his last ball) into34 during a practice match in Peachtree when 34 was at squaring up to shoot. 34's hopper is somewhat similar to 25's, just alot more square.
Will a triplet be on Einstein? I'm willing to bet yes. Will a triplet go home as Champions? I can't say yet.


Oh yeah, congratulations to this thread. You made me read 6 pages in one sitting!

[J Flex 188]

Just for clarification's sake, Team 1114 was very deservedly awarded with a Chairman's Award at the Waterloo Regional. Karthik was also a WFA finalist last year at the same event.

And again, three regional championships, with the same alliance is nothing short of absolutely spectacular.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Are the triplets the best robots in FIRST? I would tend to say no, but I havn't seen them in person. I will say that the triplets are the best "perimeter shooters" I know of.
Additionally there is no way to tell, not even Atlanta. With any form of alliance structure you can often determine which alliance is the best, but very rarely which team is the best.
Team 25 is having arguably the best regional season, ever. 31-0, 2 regional championships, a regional chairmans, woodie flowers finalist award, and the list goes on. 1114 and 1503 have won 3 regionals together. 1680 has kicked some serious butt as well. 254 is dominant as usual. Etc etc etc
As mentioned, the triplets are NOT unstoppable. 45 shut down 1503 in Q93 in GTR. Did 1503 use low gear? Only 1503 knows. As Paul Copioli mentioned in another thread, the "Division by Chicken" alliance was in far from top condition in SF matches 2 and 3. 229's shooter was busted, and 4 was expieriencing several problems (they didn't even get their robot until friday of the regional due to a shipping fiasco). Would 229, 217, and 4 have won out if they were in optimal condition? Nobody knows.
Alot has been said about playing defense against human loading robots. Even I have made this mistake in other posts, but remember this. There is no "Human loading zone" in this year's game. You can load a robot wherever on the field you so chose. Sure, closer may be a higher % shot, but it's not the only space you can load. Robbie, 116's excellent HP, managed to load one ball (his last ball) into34 during a practice match in Peachtree when 34 was at squaring up to shoot. 34's hopper is somewhat similar to 25's, just alot more square.
Will a triplet be on Einstein? I'm willing to bet yes. Will a triplet go home as Champions? I can't say yet.


Oh yeah, congratulations to this thread. You made me read 6 pages in one sitting!

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I will say that the triplets are the best "perimeter shooters" I know of.

I would disagree with you on that one, 25 is the best perimeter shooter, there ability to be anywhere around the goal and still score is amazing. The triplets are more of a short range pound them in' type shooter, They can score from everywhere but are most efficient from in front of the ramp. There are many robots who shoot like the triplets, and even shoot faster (229, 68) but none of them have the all around versatility that the triplets have. once they get into a spot to shoot no one is going to move them, if there is too much defense in front of the ramp, they will zoom around you and shoot from on top of the ramp, or stand back line up and shoot. It's the multiple scoring threat and strong drive which gives them the advantage in any match.

[Karthik]

Well, I figured I should chime in at some point.

I'd love to be able to answer the question "Are the NiagaraFIRST Triplets the best team(s) in 2006?" Unfortunately, my opinion is probably slightly biased. Nevertheless, here are some comments.

The regional season put together by both 1114 and 1503 are unparalleled in the alliance era. The last team to win three regionals was Team 47 in 1998. Now, that being said, there are many teams who could have won 3 regionals if they had attended that many. For example, is there anyone out there who thinks Team 71 wouldn't have won a 3rd regional in 2001 if presented the opportunity? We're very proud of our historical accomplishment, but we know that it does not automatically define us as "the best". It just means we have the most trophies on the year.

Where do the Triplets rank among the other elite teams in FIRST? There will always be debates like this, and usually no consensus is achieved. Going into this year's Rose Bowl, there was much debate about who was better, Texas or USC. Many people had opinions, but there was no way anything concrete could be determined. These teams had not played each other, and their common opponents could only be linked by a graph with a depth of three. The same applies in FIRST. How can anyone truly compare Team 1114 with 111, or 1503 with 25? How many people have actually seen the robots they're comparing in person? Anything we come up with and say is pure conjecture. Now, I'm not trying to throw a wet blanket on these discussions. They're a lot of fun, and that's why we have them.

I know for a fact that my teams are not unbeatable. This is because we've lost matches. Team 68 beat the bejeezus out of 1114 & 1503 at GLR during the elimination rounds. Team 469 out strategized 1114 in a qualification match at GLR. Team 229, 217 & 4 plain out outplayed us in the Semis in Toronto. Yes these teams are beatable. Now, after that moment of humility, let me say this. Every other team in FIRST is beatable as well. Even the great Beatty in 2002 lost elimination matches.

So in summation, I hesitate to call our teams the best, but I do think we're on an elite level. At this point there's no way of differentiating between team like the triplets, 111, 25, 254, 968, 469, 71 and the rest of the top teams. We're very honoured to know that people across FIRST consider us the best team they've seen, and we hope that at least one of our teams will be able to earn this honour down in Atlanta, along with two other fantastic FIRST teams.

In terms of the general success of the regional season, I suspect if you ask most members of NiagaraFIRST, especially those on 1114, what their proudest moment of the season was, it would be winning the Waterloo Chairman's award. When the concept of the triplets was first decided upon in 2004, never was the goal to bring home more trophies. It was to spread the word FIRST, which we feel our collaboration has allowed for. Our community has been energized by FIRST, and by the day more kids get bitten by the FIRST bug. This easily outweighs the trophies we've earned.

Congratulations to all teams on a wonderful regional season, and good luck to those competing in Atlanta.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Karthik

In terms of the general success of the regional season, I suspect if you ask most members of NiagaraFIRST, especially those on 1114, what their proudest moment of the season was, it would be winning the Waterloo Chairman's award. When the concept of the triplets was first decided upon in 2004, never was the goal to bring home more trophies. It was to spread the word FIRST, which we feel our collaboration has allowed for. Our community has been energized by FIRST, and by the day more kids get bitten by FIRST bug. This easily outweighs the trophies we've earned.

Well said. That is what it's all about.