The promise of college for our generation

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Dzdconfusd

College is what you put into it and by many is looked at as a measure of proof that you can work to a goal you don't need to reach but want to. That is why it is a litmus test used by many employers.

This is almost exactly what my first supervisor told me when I was an EE co-op at Hughes Aircraft in 1979. He was actually scolding me for getting a bad grade (supervisors received their students' grade reports back in the day), and said that the only reason he'd hire a college graduate over a similarly skilled person who had spent four years doing something else is that the college graduate had demonstrated ability to persevere through difficulty.

See also: the best twenty years of my life, and are you going to college to get a degree, or an education?

[JaneYoung]

Rudderless is a common feeling during college for many.

In a way you are feeling the benefits of F.I.R.S.T. -it's strengths and philosophies.

There are those who follow choices made by others rather than themselves. And there are those who make easy choices at the time.
And there are those who just don't know.

Education goes hand in hand with self-discovery and exploration. The trick is to engage.

Jane

[Charlie B]

Anyone looking for motivation should review the wage earning statistics for college graduates vs. high school graduates.

Don't worry too much about choosing the right career to start off with. Chances are, your career will change three or four times over your lifetime, and you'll wind up in something that doesn't even exist now.

[Jason Kixmiller]

I think that the biggest "problem" is not necessarily encouraging or pushing students to attend college; it's the negative connotation that is associated with NOT going to college. Sometimes it seems that students are subliminally told that people that don't go to college are destined to be unhappy or unsuccessful in. I think a solution might be helping students explore the other options...maybe college is just a way to avoid our fear of the unknown. While the benefits of college are constantly presented, when are the alternatives discussed?

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Let us agree that the best college for us may not necessary the most competitive schools in the country, and let that be that. Jaine, I think you have a good point, one worth standing on, and you shouldn't feel bad expressing what you really think. There must be others out there who believe the same thing (I happened to be one of them).

Getting back to the topic, let me articulate my position further.

While there are many definition for success, for example, getting through a difficult challenge, exploring the world, getting a higher degree, learning how to learn, and finding your passion, which I agree are great achievements for any college students, I think it is more important to look at the flip side of them.

College CAN be many things for many students, but it CAN also be the following things to some students I know:

College is something they want to get over as soon as possible and want nothing to do with afterward.
College is a collection of cutting classes and missing as much work as possible and scrape by with the minimal effort.
School and learning are something they hate, and homework and tests are something they hate worse.
College is something they struggle with, have no idea why they struggle with, and something they don't know how to succeed in.

And here is the worst: College is something someone told them to go to.


I do not disagree there are many cases of success in colleges across the United States. I do, however, want to point out that it seems to me there is a raising feeling of not knowing what the point of college is among the students. I do not yet have any evidence to support this observation, other than observations I made from friends in my school. That's is why I raised this question, becuase I do not know all the facts (I doubt anyone does).

Do you agree, or disagree with this? Is our generation more aware or less aware of the point of college? And is the lack of this awareness the reason why so many students are struggling through college?

Ken,

I think that you are noticing these things because you are in college and are surrounded by students who are struggling and are questioning why they are there. I believe that too many school systems do not address their students' needs when they are children. Academic and career choices should ideally be presented to students starting when they are young, and coursework should be related to real world experiences. Unfortunately for many students, this is just not the case. By high school, they are bored out of their minds and can't wait to get out. Then they are told they must get good scores on the standardized tests and get into "good" schools in order to succeed, but success is not defined for them past that point.

Success involves self-actualization as defined by Maslow (see what I learned in college so many years ago?...lol) - once your needs are met, you want more - to feel like you are important in some way, have made a difference, to feel good about yourself, enjoy a good quality of life. College can help students learn to think for themselves by studying the thoughts and ideas of others, both past and present, by listening to many points of view, and intelligently challenging ideas. Cutting class wastes money and the chance to stretch one's mental wings. Learning takes place every day in someone's life, whether they are in college or not - maybe some college students don't want to learn what they are being taught in class, but I don't think they dislike learning in general. Struggling in college is common - as I've mentioned before, a lot of students aren't prepared, either emotionally or academically, for the rigors of college life and it's frustrating and disheartening.

As for your last comment, sadly I think it is true in many cases that there are students in college who were told to attend, but the reasons for the advice were not divulged. I can tell you from my personal experiences that college is like a finishing school ... graduates have a "polish" that enriches their lives in many ways, no matter what career they ultimately pursue. A college education enables a person to more thoroughly enjoy the company of people from all backgrounds (by understanding and appreciating cultural differences and similarities), to appreciate literature, art, music, travel, to hold their own in a spirited conversation no matter what the topic, to find their particular passion and learn how to learn.

It is true that there are many, many people who have a wonderful quality of life despite never having attended college - but college students are lucky. They have the luxury of the years they spend in school to grow, change and become the people they would like to be. I remember feeling a lot like those students you describe when I started college, but by the time I graduated, I was so different - I had learned how to set goals for myself, tested my limits, and really enjoyed most of the time I spent in school. The size and prestige of the school really has little to do with a student's success, it's more about the student knowing themselves and where they belong.

[thatphotochick]

as a high school student, i can not comment on the struggle of being in college cause i haven't gone to college. but for me, college was pushed on me since i was little. the reason was cause most of my family did not go to college. but ever since i learned what college was, i've never wanted to go. i have my interests and what i like to do, which is a huge list, but college is not for me. i barely work at high school and i don't care for school already, so why waste my parents' money, which they don't have, or the money of the good people who would give it to me. i don't have a clue what i want to do, or even what i am going to do after i graduate. i just feel that pushing college on everyone isn't the answer, cause that is how you get so many people who have no idea what they're going to do in life. encouraging kids to do what they want could fix that. too many people want/expect their kids and students to become the best there is..too many of those people push them to become things they don't want to become. since i was little i have been pushed to become a business manager or run a business, something i've never wanted to be. if people took the time to discover what a kid likes to do, that could stop a few people from becoming something they don't want to be. it might not be the solution, i've never been known to solve a problem, but it could help.

[Not2B]

I understand Ken's question very well, as it's something my wife has/is going through.

She was told that engineering was hard, and it was something she couldn't do because it was too hard. So.... she proved that wasn't true. She went to University of Michigan, which is not some easy school, and got a degree in Materials Science. Metals and Ceramics (not so much in the polymers.)

She graduated with a high GPA, and didn't really know what to do with that. Worked in a steel mill - hated it, and now works in advertising, which is totally unrelated to what she studied.

But she was always told if she went to college and got a good degree, she would be set for life. But she hated engineering, and had worked several entry level jobs just to make her way through advertising. Had she studied something like art history (something she would enjoy), she would have had an easier time.

Getting a degree isn't a free ride, especially if it's something you don't enjoy.

Besides, college isn't for everyone.

No idea how to fix this. Personally, I try not to push college on everyone - something I used to do. I have recognized that it's not for everyone, figuring out what someone wants to do is more important.

[sanddrag]

The problem I take most notice of in college is the lack of quality education through innovative and creative means. Education has become boring and not very fun at all. Students sleep in class, or skip class, because they can't stand listening to a professor babble on through equations in a room with grey walls, fluorescent lights, and no windows. Professors are teaching how to calculate the way through designing the perfect screwdriver when half the students in the class haven't even held one.

This is a hands on generation. We don't like sitting in cramped little chairs with attached desks barely larger than a sheet of paper while being lectured at.

In many of my college classes, a 50% class average on a test would be considered normal. This is simply unnaceptable.

Education is failing. Nobody wants to stare at a board full of greek letters and complicated equations all day. Nobody wants to labor through a 1000 page math book solving hundreds of integrals. It isn't working. We aren't learning.

Education needs to become more applied and exciting. Right now, at least to me, it is quite boring.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Education is failing. Nobody wants to stare at a board full of greek letters and complicated equations all day. Nobody want to labor through a 1000 page math book solving hundreds of integrals. It isn't working. We aren't learning.

Education needs to become more applied.

I know how that goes. I'm a senior in high school, and one of my favorite classes this year is AP Phsyics. Yes, it's a hard class, but the teacher makes it engaging with good, hands-on projects.

First we learn about air drag, center of mass and center of pressure, and then we design and build model rockets. We measure their coefficent of drag, the thrust curve of an engine and write excel programs to calculate the predicted height. Put an altimeter in the payload bay, launch and record. This is one of many projects we do. It's fun and it gives context for all the equations, as well as ensuring that we know how to apply them.

That's how school should be taught. Knowing the equations is one thing, but being able to give them context in the real world is entirely different. This is one of the reasons FIRST is so successful at inspiring students. If the education system was able to tap into that, the results could be incredible.

[Ben Lauer]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Education is failing. Nobody wants to stare at a board full of greek letters and complicated equations all day. Nobody wants to labor through a 1000 page math book solving hundreds of integrals. It isn't working. We aren't learning.

Education needs to become more applied and exciting. Right now, at least to me, it is quite boring.

I disagree. With my education I can look at a mass spring system and see a second order linear differential equation with dampening coefficient zeta. When I look at a water tank draining, I see a second order non linear differential equation. You want to know what the greatest part is? Not that I see it, or that I know I can solve it, but that every time I see it, I KNOW it, and I KNOW what it will do. Knowledge is great, anyway we get it.

I thought high school was a waste, and I thought I didn't learn anything important stuff in freshman year of college. I am 5 weeks from the end of my sophomore year, and I am really excited for the next two year because I see the potential for what I can learn and KNOW! And those first 5 years of my secondary schooling where necessary in order to learn at the new level.

I think that applying the knowledge can happen properly until you think you know what is going to happen, and realized why you were wrong.

[John Gutmann]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

The problem I take most notice of in college is the lack of quality education through innovative and creative means. Education has become boring and not very fun at all. Students sleep in class, or skip class, because they can't stand listening to a professor babble on through equations in a room with grey walls, fluorescent lights, and no windows. Professors are teaching how to calculate the way through designing the perfect screwdriver when half the students in the class haven't even held one.

This is a hands on generation. We don't like sitting in cramped little chairs with attached desks barely larger than a sheet of paper while being lectured at.

In many of my college classes, a 50% class average on a test would be considered normal. This is simply unnaceptable.

Education is failing. Nobody wants to stare at a board full of greek letters and complicated equations all day. Nobody wants to labor through a 1000 page math book solving hundreds of integrals. It isn't working. We aren't learning.

Education needs to become more applied and exciting. Right now, at least to me, it is quite boring.

This is what it is like in my highschool.

At the beggining of the year I needed 1 more credit. So I picked a class that would be easy, conceptual physics. haha, yes conceptual physics. The part that surprises me is that I would rather be in the conceptual class then be in then a normal physicis class. In conceptual physics we sit there for a class and learn this is this and that is that and to do this you use this equation. But the next class we do things that are hands on. We have periods of up to 3 weeks at a time where we just come into class, the teahcer talks for 2 mins then we are doing hands on things all class long. compared to the regents phsycis where they sit there for a week being lectured and get 1 class to do something.

This kinda proves the point that Jaine was making. Just because a school has a big name doesn't mean it is better for you. Yes if you go to a big school you may get a "better" (better being used very loosly here) degree. your degree isn't necessarily better, it just has a more recognized name on it. If you wanna go pay more for a better degree may get you a better job.

If you are going to a big name school because you want that degree with the fancy name on it so you can get a high paying executive position then you might as well go become a lawyer. (no offense, my dad is a lawyer and I don't even let him explain things to me)


Another reason that I dont wanna go to a big school like MIT ( though I wish I could use their facilities ) is that you pay more to pay the professors. At big school like that they put one teacher in a room with alot of people. (90+ maybe) so naturally that one teacher will get paid more for teaching more people and for teaching at MIT. So really what are you getting out of that, the teacher could careless if you learn. ( most anyways ) they wana go teach an getout of there. Not many of them will stay after class to show you this cool little thing-a-mabob they have. Or to help you with your own project. Or even help mentor a robotics team!

Now on the other hand if you look at the small schools, those professors aren't getting paid a whole lot so surely they must love their job. They must be doing what they love or else they would be teaching at MIT. And surely if they love their job that much it will carry through in how they teach you. Also not to mention a small class size and more likely more hands on things, more demos, better learning. ( you know the whole shabang)

THANK YOU COMMUNITY COLLEGE.......only for the first 2 years

[sanddrag]

I like to feel proud of myself when I come upon a student who can solve any integral on the face of the planet, but who has never taken apart an engine, turned a piece of metal on a lathe, drilled a hole, installed an operating system, served a web page, typed a line of code, purchased a ball bearing, or otherwise.

FIRST gives you exposure to so many things that a majority of students miss out on.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I like to feel proud of myself when I come upon a student who can solve any integral on the face of the planet, but who has never taken apart an engine, turned a piece of metal on a lathe, drilled a hole, installed an operating system, served a web page, typed a line of code, purchased a ball bearing, or otherwise.

FIRST gives you exposure to so many things that a majority of students miss out on.

You've been very dismissive of higher education in your last few posts, but I'm willing to bet that if you want to become an engineer, your future employer will care a lot more about your integral solving abilities, than your abilities as a car mechanic.

Practical knowledge is great, FIRST gives us gobs of it, but unless you put your nose down and learn the theory stuff, you're not going to be any use to anyone as an engineer. We always need to know "why".

-JV

edit:
I feel the need to clarify, after reading Greg's post below... I do not believe theory is everything, and that practical knowledge is useless. Those who know me, know this is DEFINITELY not true. However, I AM arguing that you can't be so dismissive of the theoretical parts of engineering. (No snide comments from my college roommates, please.)

Those who say "It doesn't matter that I am flunking Calculus, because I've gotten lots of experience in FIRST, and that's what will make me a good engineer" are TOTALLY deluding themselves. Stop lying to yourself, you're wrong. Take it from someone who has been there. I took Calc2 twice (I got a D the first time), after my father kicked me in the butt; the 2nd time I got an "A".

Sure, it is good to be on Baja, but if you're learning your integrals too... who cares?
/edit

[Greg Needel]

Originally Posted by JVN

You've been very dismissive of higher education in your last few posts, but I'm willing to bet that if you want to become an engineer, your future employer will care a lot more about your integral solving abilities, than your abilities as a car mechanic.

Practical knowledge is great, FIRST gives us gobs of it, but unless you put your nose down and learn the theory stuff, you're not going to be any use to anyone as an engineer. We always need to know "why".

-JV

John,
I completely agree that theory definitely is very important, you can't be a good designer/engineer unless you can determine mathematically that something will work or fail before there is alot of money invested the prototype/production line. That being said there is also quite alot of usefulness in knowing manufacturing processes and the "hands on" side of things. The truth of the matter is that you need to have a good balance of both. If you are strictly theoretical and design an "amazingearthchanging thingy" but it can't be built what is the point? On that same note you can't pretend that you are an engineer if you are just a glorified machinist. Learn the theory in the classroom and pick up the practical through clubs (FIRST, mini Baja, SAE). IMO you really need the scale balanced in the middle instead of heavy on one side of the equation.

Greg

[Ken Leung]

As we are drawing to toward the end of this discussion, I want to thank all of you for your input.

Although I had to take a particular strong stand for the sake of discussion, a lot of it does reflect my true feeling about our education system. Part of my position came from the fact that ever since I've return to college after a long break, I've gained a new found appreciation of school. Unfortunately I’ve felt a bit lonely with my passion of learning because a lot of students around me do not share my passion. At times I find it more enjoyable sitting home reading about the structure of scientific revolution, or Descartes' meditation, or contemporary Chinese history.

College is hard for a lot of people. It should be hard because otherwise it doesn't mean anything. A while ago we debated the title of “engineer” because some believe anyone can be an “engineer” as long as “engineering” is what you do, while others believe you have to have a degree. I don’t want to revive that debate, although I do want to reiterate my opinion that it should be hard for people, otherwise it doesn’t mean anything.

Part of going to college is learning to think beyond the box you learned to put the world in when you were small, part of it is exposing yourself to people who do care about getting a higher education and doing something with it after they graduate, and part of it is a test, a training section to prepare you for adulthood.

Success in college can mean many things to many people, and what I was hoping to accomplish with this discussion was to bring some of those points of view out for the rest of you to see. I hope that after this discussion, some of you will realize that you are about to begin a very difficult journey, one where success isn't guaranteed, that is unless success is what you really want.


But surely "difficult" isn't going to stop any of you from trying, right? Good, because it's not stopping me from trying neither. I came back to college because of a dream, and I am not going to stop until I reach it.


Thank you for all of your input. Good luck to those of you competing in this week's Championship Event, and I hope to chat with you guys again about college, about decision, and our future.