The promise of college for our generation

[Gdeaver]

I went through this with my son who is now finishing his second semester in ME. You don't go to college to learn how to do a job - thats what technical institutes are for and most in this country suck. I told my son that you go to college to learn how to learn. In high school you're more or less spoon fed the basic subjects. You're told exactly what to read and you're lectured in class. The tests are nothing more than a chance to regurgitate the info back. In college you should be practicing the skill of research. By the time you graduate you should be able to teach your self. This is important because the one constant in your future is change. If you can't adapt and constantly re-educate you're self you won't thrive and prosper in whatever career you choose. You have 4 years of not having to deal with the real world. Find yourself, have a good time, explore your horizons, etc. and learn how to learn.

[Ben Lauer]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

I told my son that you go to college to learn how to learn. In high school you're more or less spoon fed the basic subjects. You're told exactly what to read and you're lectured in class.

I have a personal example of this.
My father is a biology teacher at Ball State University. When he teaches freshman bio, he makes them do the following.
He holds up a blue card, he says, "what color is this"
- They respond, "blue"
He says, that is how you learn in high school, regurgitation of facts.
He holds up the card again and asks "why is it blue"
- They mumble something about absorption of light.
He states, that is college.
And he continues on by asking "now what do i need to do to make the color red?"

It isn't what you know, but how you know it and how you can apply the knowledge.

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

I went through this with my son who is now finishing his second semester in ME. You don't go to college to learn how to do a job - thats what technical institutes are for and most in this country suck. I told my son that you go to college to learn how to learn. In high school you're more or less spoon fed the basic subjects. You're told exactly what to read and you're lectured in class. The tests are nothing more than a chance to regurgitate the info back. In college you should be practicing the skill of research. By the time you graduate you should be able to teach your self. This is important because the one constant in your future is change. If you can't adapt and constantly re-educate you're self you won't thrive and prosper in whatever career you choose. You have 4 years of not having to deal with the real world. Find yourself, have a good time, explore your horizons, etc. and learn how to learn.

Hear, hear! I experienced a tough time finding myself in college, luckily ended up graduating only a semester behind (and in a field not even remotely like what I thought I wanted)...and my husband also had to find his way. So when it was time for our kids to choose their college paths, we told them up front that they would probably have some setbacks along the way, but that college gives one the tools you need to succeed in the world of work no matter what path you choose ultimately. We have found that college admissions people love undecided students, because they are open to new ideas and make confident decisions about a major faster than those students who come in so sure of their choices. Engineering poses a challenge, because in most schools, you must start with the heavy math and science right away...but if a student tries engineering and doesn't like it, it's easy enough to transfer the extra tech courses into elective slots for another major.

And I agree with what's been said before, not all kids should go to college - some don't want to right away, some just aren't cut out for the academic world, some have other plans for whatever their reasons...but that's ok. We desperately need service technicians, auto and other mechanics, and trades people in all fields - here is where students on FIRST teams have an edge, they have a lot of the skills that are needed out in the "real" world.

[rufu5]

I can't really comment on the idea of what happens in college or after college to students who "fall extra hard" because I am still only in high school. But as a student who has up to this point had a life totally dedicated to "getting into college" and getting a good score on all the standardized tests, its kind of surreal feeling to actually be going to college in a few months.

For all of the possible pitfalls, I think the ability to fail is a good thing. Take that how you will, but without the possibility of failure, of a true challenge, having to make something for yourself ... isn't the outcome cheapened? I don't really want "a clear idea of where that journey leads to" because that would kind of be like making a robot for FIRST with a full step-by-step instruction manual on how to make the perfect robot. We need the uncertainty that comes with the first small steps of personal independence, we need the chance to change our major, and we need the experience of not getting the first job we interview for. Because otherwise, we'll just take everything we have for-granted.

Most likely my tune will change in 5 years, after I'm out of college and more "mature," but right now so this discussion can have multiple viewpoints that is my view as a senior in high school

[Tim Baird]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Are we telling them to take these journeys, without giving them a clear idea of where that journey leads to?

Half of the fun/point of college is that you don't necessarily know where the journey will take you. Sometimes, you have to go out into the world not knowing what the outcome will be, get into some tight situations, and then learn how to come out on top. It's like a bird learning to fly, at some point it has to step out of the nest and fall, hopefully flapping it's wings correctly before it hits the ground.

Of course, I realize that college is expensive and the longer you take to figure out where you want to fit it, the more it will cost you. So, as long as you use only your freshman (and maybe some of sophomore) year to figure things out, you'll be fine.

If it's any consolation, when I graduated from HS, 5 people in the top 10 of the class went to college "undecided".

[b_mallerd]

I'm not going to post secondary for another year yet...but I've never had a clear plan where I wanted to go. It's more like I'm going to post secondary to realize what I want to do. I have a general direction (computing science or Environmental science) but no real occupations in mind.

The sad thing is, everyone goes to college for a job...."if you dont go to post secondary you won't have a job (well at least a decent one)". So everyone is flocking to univercity and getting a degree in anything just so they can go out to find work.

I want to go to univercity for higher learning...for deeper understanding of the material. I find classes and subject matters taught in highschool to be woefullly dissapointing and shallow. Nothing is satisfactorily understood by the time the teaher goes "time for a chapter test". I think this is the right reason to go to univercity...I may be wrong...but I won't be entering it as a means by which to find a job...it will be a means to further my understanding in fields of interest.

[Jizvonius]

Wow Ken,

I started typing replies to your post twice. They got very long and I realized that they still wouldn't do justice to the depth of the questions you just asked or fully portray my response. I was beginning to wonder why it was so hard to get the post going. Then I realized that it was the same difficulty that I have in writing long essays and term papers. It would probably take something of that length to explore the implications of what you have posed.

That said, I will just pose more questions that came up when I tried to answer yours.


In our society what factors define success for students?

Do we encourage quantitatively measuring success? Why or why not?

How else do we measure success?(what is our 'ruler')

In portraying the success of icons, do we abstract the aspects of their journey that we find undesirable? Is knowledge of the full story important?

Are we motivated by hope or guarantees?

If both which one is the stronger motivator?

Which is the better motivator?

There are more, but I'll leave it there........for now.

[eugenebrooks]

The goal of college is to get an education in a field of study that interests you. In the end, you likely have to go out and get a job so it is useful if the education serves this purpose as well, but if the education itself is not interesting to you a change of venue is in order.

One possible change of venue can be a change of major if you find that an alternative major stokes a fire in you. If your major is not doing that for you it is likely that any follow-on employment in the same field may not stoke a fire either, so a change in venue is all the more important.

If the rigors of college are something that you find unattractive enough to complain about, you should really consider an alternative. There are many career oriented "schools of specialization" that require only one or two years and that provide an attractive employment venue afterwards. There is nothing wrong with these alternatives if they are a fit for you.

I spent a great deal of time building electronic circuits as a teenager 35 years ago (many of these circuits used tubes), and went to college with a passion to become an electrical engineer. In spite of nearly straight As, I was quite bored with the general engineering curriculum and switched to Physics at the end of my first year. I learned, in college, that what I really had a passion for was understanding how physical things worked and I have stuck with it through a Phd, and ever since.

Actively hunt for your passion in college. Hunt your passion until you find a major that is so interesting that even a bad professor is not all that hard to bear. Find a topic of study that drops your jaw when you learn cool things.

For me, it was learning things like Maxwell's equations predicting the speed of light and why the sky is blue. For you, it is likely to be something different, but find your passion you can, and finding your passion is worth the effort that it takes. This is nothing new for today's generation. It has always been this way. If you can look back at your college days 30 years later, and still be thrilled at how cool the topic of study was, in spite of how hard it was, and still want to learn more about it, you are doing the right thing in college.

Seek out your passion, when you find it, it will be worth it...

[Robyn Needel]

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

The goal of college is to get an education in a field of study that interests you. In the end, you likely have to go out and get a job so it is useful if the education serves this purpose as well, but if the education itself is not interesting to you a change of venue is in order.

One possible change of venue can be a change of major if you find that an alternative major stokes a fire in you. If your major is not doing that for you it is likely that any follow-on employment in the same field may not stoke a fire either, so a change in venue is all the more important.

If the rigors of college are something that you find unattractive enough to complain about, you should really consider an alternative. There are many career oriented "schools of specialization" that require only one or two years and that provide an attractive employment venue afterwards. There is nothing wrong with these alternatives if they are a fit for you.

I spent a great deal of time building electronic circuits as a teenager 35 years ago (many of these circuits used tubes), and went to college with a passion to become an electrical engineer. In spite of nearly straight As, I was quite bored with the general engineering curriculum and switched to Physics at the end of my first year. I learned, in college, that what I really had a passion for was understanding how physical things worked and I have stuck with it through a Phd, and ever since.

Actively hunt for your passion in college. Hunt your passion until you find a major that is so interesting that even a bad professor is not all that hard to bear. Find a topic of study that drops your jaw when you learn cool things.

For me, it was learning things like Maxwell's equations predicting the speed of light and why the sky is blue. For you, it is likely to be something different, but find your passion you can, and finding your passion is worth the effort that it takes. This is nothing new for today's generation. It has always been this way. If you can look back at your college days 30 years later, and still be thrilled at how cool the topic of study was, in spite of how hard it was, and still want to learn more about it, you are doing the right thing in college.

Seek out your passion, when you find it, it will be worth it...

What wonderful advice - I hope everyone here memorizes it. It seems to me that this is the real reason FIRST exists, to expose students to subjects and ideas that might inspire some passion that will in turn become a career choice and in turn change our culture for the better, which is part of Dean's homework assignments for us all.

[Daisy]

I cannot give a perspective upon life after high school, for I am a junior in high school, but I do have some thoughts on college (parenthetically, I have only browsed through the responses so I do not know if this was noted, but I figured to post it anyways). Maybe, in my limited view, I am missing something, and am biased, or answering an off topic thread with and off topic response.

However it seems that college is a great chance that some people, in other regions of the world, really have to strive for, and not take lightly. In some regions of the world, there are not as great opportunities out there for them for something, financial or otherwise, is limiting them from furthering their education.

I have heard many people say about that they are going to college for the parties. I have heard people mention that they want freedom, but the same people not once mention a word about the education they will receive. So maybe, college does offer exactly what it says it does, and all colleges offer something really great, but some people decide not to take it seriously, and go on for the "fun". That is not a college's fault, but all those hormones that seem to take over, and to at least me, when infused into their brains make them go wacko .

So my answer to the question of whether or not colleges give false hope, is that they do not. It is all in what a person decides to do with the opportunity he is given. It is all on the amount of focus a person gives. And maybe even it is the other way around. Maybe, some people put false advertisements on colleges, labelling them of lower rank, when isn't college, not a name, but what you get out of it? and how good the professors you find are, and how you use their knowledge to the best degree you can?

Sorry if this was mumbo jumbo. I hope it makes sense to somebody somewhere, even if it isn't me I also inserted a bunch of spaces. Hope it makes it a bit more readable.

Daisy

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

There are a lot of student in college who are there without knowing what they want to do, and what they are going to do after getting out of college. There are a lot of students who even before going to college, already have trouble figuring out what their future is. There are a lot of students who struggle in college without knowing what they are struggling for.
.................................................. .....................................
I am asking this question in a very general way, because a lot of FIRST students go to college knowing what they want. But I don't see the same for a lot of other students (ie. students who haven't participated in FIRST).

Ken, amazing post, and a great topic.

I went into college knowing exactly what I was going to do in life, which was to be a tech ed. teacher. However, I found out that while I still would like to teach some day, that it is not for me right now. I actually ended up dropping out of college because I was so confused on what to do with life and felt like I was wasting my time and money by being there.

It has been a year now, and I feel that this break from the education realm is actually exactly what I needed to get my life straightened out. Experiencing what it is like to work a dead end job full time has really given me the perspective of what I do not want to do with my life. With a little luck and some help through FIRST. I am going back to college next year with an attended major in broadcasting. It is amazing to think that even after being graduated for two years, FIRST can still help you out in life.

If I would have stayed in college not knowing what I was going to do for my major and with the rest of my life, I do not believe that I would have found my "calling". So here is my question: Do teachers/ education administration officials tell you to go to college and to stay in college when you have no clue what you are going to do just to make the university more money? As much as this seems like a cruel and evil thing to do, I believe that there is some truth to it. Believe it or not, it is a business, and ask any business owner(s) the true meaning of having a business and they will tell you that it is money. If they say otherwise than they are most likely lying to you (this is excluding a lot of mom and pop shops, I am talking more corporations here).
Yes, even public universities are businesses, that is why they have administration. They are there to recruit students and make the money to keep their college going.

To answer your question Ken, I believe that when I found out that my dreams and goals changed, that I feel extra hard. Yes there are guidance counselors, and some of them are very helpful, but it just isn’t enough at times. Their answer was to stay in college and that I should find something that interests me.

[Ken Leung]

I would like to make the following observation to try to explain why what I observered earlier is happening. I would like to see if you guys agree.

#1 A student cannot be told to have a successful education, it MUST come from within that student's mind.

Ultimately everyone is in charge of their own life, and yet, through out a child's education, he or she is told what to learn, when to learn, where to learn, how to learn, and why. As soon as they enter high school, they are immediately faced with a 4 year plan of courses they have to take if they want to graduate high school and continue in a higher education institution. Along the way they have to do well in standardized testing, get good grades, as well as take AP classes and do as much out-of-school activities as possible if they were to have a chace at some of the more competitive schools.

I do not deny that there are necessary things in school that you must learn in order to be a successful human being. But by the time students are ready for colleges, they have been drilled by their education so long that that method of learning is the only one they know. I am, of course, making generalization here. There are many students who are able to decide for themselves what to learn, when to learn, where to learn, how to learn, and why. But, I do not see that anywhere near the emphasis of our education system. Students weren't told to think about why they should learn as much as the what, where, how, and when, and I believe that's a major problem.

Why you learning, to me, should be just as important a pirority any other things they teach in school.


#2 Students are different and each require different pace and different method when they are learning.

There should be no doubt about this. Some students are ready for college before they graduate high school. Some aren't ready even after they are already done with it. It is aparently to me that not every one is suitable for the whole elementary-middle-high school then a degree in a 4 year college path. It is aparent to me that some maybe more successful in a technical school or a job training school, while other will be great to move onto a master degree or a PhD. It is aparently to me that some need time to figure out what they want to do with their lives and some need more opportunity to see what paths they can take, while others do know their path since they were 12.

If it is aparent to me, why is it not aparently to the rest of the world? Why is the education system in general seems to only work for one particular kind of student and that kind of student only?

Well, I do know why. It's because it is expensive. Too expensive to have a small class room with teachers paying more attentions to individual students, it is too expensive to have a flexible system for many types of students, and it is too expensive to be doing all these things to inspire a child's mind and show him or her the huge world out there. It is also too expensive when school has to do a job that the parents, the government, the culture, and the world should've been doing in the first place. School cannot afford to do everything necessary to prepare a student for lives as an adult, yet the general idea is that that's what their job is.

#3 There are just too much to learn.

As soon as a student starts school, he or she must hit the ground running and try to keep up with the pace. In high school, you have to learn English, math, science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology), history, US government, foreign language, the arts, economics, physical education, and many more.

There are lots of important things to learn there, and one must be exposed to as many kind of classes as possible in order to gain a boarder prespective to the world out there. Only, that's not exactly what happened. Because there are so many things to learn, you must keep your head down and get ready for cramming and testing as soon as you start. There are so many information that you must hurry to start studying for everything before you have a chance to take a breath and look at what you are learning and why. There are too many to learn that there's no boarder prespective of all of these classes anymore.

Of course, it only gets worse at a college. Ever seen the amounts of degrees you can get at a pretty decent 4 years college? Arts and humanities, social science, and science and engineering. Each brach ready to grant you 1 of 100 degree if you know exactly what you want. Of course, within each degree there are emphasis, different ways you can approach the degree.


All these are very important. But what about the world outside? What about the fact that you can't learn everything and that there is no text book or standardized testing or answers in the back of the book when you go out? What about there is no right answers in many things in this world?

There are way too much to learn, and that's not including the fact that there is no set curriculum, no test, no book, no grades good enough to make you successful beyond those things.

That's the end game for education, isn't it? What happens after school when you are out there in the world picking up the burden the previous generation left behind for you? The goal is to have students ready to face the world and lead our society into the future after their education, isn't it?

I read Paul Graham regularly and this thread reminded me of one of his essays, How to Do What You Love. It has a lot of insight on the relationship between work and fun (not mutally exclusive).

[mhayon]

That's interesting, we were talking about something similar in my Advanced College Essay class. Part of the reason we have so many students in universities, apparently, is that after the baby boomer generation, there were a lot of people going to college post-war. This caused universities to expand. After that generation, there have always been many spots open at universities, and it has evolved into a bidding game-- the marketing aspect has gone up, and its no longer about receiving a true education. I don't know if this is true or not, but this is not the only view.

Taking this stance, my professor then commented "there are a lot of people at college who shouldn't be." I guess that's why more and more students are confused: there are more students in college just because they're expected to be, and less that are here for the pure pursuit of education.

Or maybe college opens up so many options that kids are in so much amazement that they don't know what to do. Maybe they wanted to explore one thing, but as time went on, something else looked pretty desirable.

About high school- a couple of my college buddies agree that high school was harder than what we're seeing in college. But I think it was important, kind of like, if you can do that, you can do anything. Also, I learned a lot of stuff I didn't want to learn in high school. But, there was some interesting stuff. I think high school is necessary to force all that stuff down your throat for the few things you do find useful, the few things you do remember, the few things you do want to explore.

[JaneYoung]

This is just a different perspective -
We have an 85 year old student at the university where I work. She has been enrolled for the 23 years that I know of and has amassed degrees and hours that I can only guess at.

She will joke and say the reason she stays enrolled is for the student health insurance. While there may be some truth to that, I think she uses the insurance to help her with the extra oxygen tanks that she needs while she follows her sherpa to higher learning.

She broadens the horizons for her classmates and for her professors every year and my thinking is that her high school education was probably a lot different than the high school programs that proliferate now.