Team Governance

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Not2B

YES! I am a MENTOR. Not a chaperone. I am busy all day, I don't want to deal with the stupidity that may or may not go on at night. I'm flying to Atlanta, and the students are going by bus. Besides, I might see something as a cool physics experiment, where a chaperone might see someone dropping pop cans down the stair wells.

Hmmm.. I have held off replying to this post for several days. I am really hoping that you did not intend this post to come across sounding the way I am interpreting it. But I can't ignore this. Are you saying that because you are a "mentor" you are not part of the team? That you are not responsible for the students you are supposedly mentoring? I am assuming that you are an engineering "mentor" and do not feel that you should be involved in team issues other than those that involved the robot. (Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions). Are other teams set up this way?

Which brings me to another point. We have a great group of parents that formed a Booster Club for the team. They call themselves the RPMs. Robotics Parents and Mentors. (Cute, huh?) They help out a huge amount. I don't even like thinking about the days before they came to be.

However you organize, a strong parents group is always a good addition. Our's helps with food, travel, fundraising, dues, overall organization, and I think it helps all parents feel more comfortable handing over their kids for 6 weeks to a small group of "crazy" engineers with power tools.

Is your parent booster club separate from the "team"? An interesting dynamic. Why do you not consider your parents or other NEMs to be "Mentors" as well as the engineers?

[TimCraig]

Originally Posted by KathieK

Are you saying that because you are a "mentor" you are not part of the team? That you are not responsible for the students you are supposedly mentoring? I am assuming that you are an engineering "mentor" and do not feel that you should be involved in team issues other than those that involved the robot.

Kathie, since Not2B was replying to a message in which I voiced the same theme, I'll chime back in.

My wife and are the primary engineering mentors on our teem. My wife also has been handling most of the club management details. I've made it clear to the team that my interest lies in designing and building the robots. If I stay involved, I plan on not working the pit next year. It's just too much stress and hassle. My wife and I aren't parents and don't enjoy playing disciplinarians. During the build we're pretty much stuck with that role. Also, during the build, the team is more than a full time job for us. Choosing our role within the team doesn't mean we think we're not part of the team. Nor do we think others who are involved with the team are not mentors. However, on our team few parents have gotten involved at all.

And we do NOT want to be responsible for the kids on the team. It's bad enough in the setting at school and at the competition event but in the less structured setting after hours at the competition, we see it as a no win situation, a source of probable aggravation, and an additional liability exposure. Frankly, we feel chaperoning the team is something better and more appropriately handled by the parents.

[Not2B]

Originally Posted by KathieK

Hmmm.. I have held off replying to this post for several days. I am really hoping that you did not intend this post to come across sounding the way I am interpreting it. But I can't ignore this. Are you saying that because you are a "mentor" you are not part of the team? That you are not responsible for the students you are supposedly mentoring? I am assuming that you are an engineering "mentor" and do not feel that you should be involved in team issues other than those that involved the robot. (Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumptions). Are other teams set up this way?
Is your parent booster club separate from the "team"? An interesting dynamic. Why do you not consider your parents or other NEMs to be "Mentors" as well as the engineers?

Back from the ATL...

Well, let me see if I can explain... As a mentor, I am a HUGE part of the team. The RPM booster club is, after all, the robotics PARENTS and MENTORS. A mentor doesn't have any students on the team. A parent does have a student on the team. That's the big difference. Some mentors have NO techical background. My wife is a mentor - and she works in advertising. We do have one parent who wants to be called a mentor because he doesn't want people to think of him as a fellow student's dad, and that's cool. No real difference. Just the way the parent's started the booster club, and just the way it stuck.

As mentors, we help with technical design. But we also help with chairman's awards. With fundraising ideas. With team building parties. With scholarship activites. Off season activites. Helping the school develop an intro to engineering class. Etc... etc... etc... I would say the mentors and parents are very much part of the team. Otherwise, we wouldn't be shot up in laser tag, stay up all night at a 24 hour walk-a-thon for cancer research, and spend our summers helping students build RC cars.

I think that helps frame where our team comes from...

All I was saying is that, as a mentor on a trip, we are responsible for alot of what is going on in the pits and all the field. As you know, it's a long day. In addition to having fun and learning with the students, we are typically responsible for the safety and learning that the students are involved with. We have limited mentors (or parents) and we need backup. At the end of the competition day, it's good to know that we have parents as chaperones. "Mentors" get tired. I think we all feel safer knowing that a fresh set of people are there to step in and help out. That doesn't mean we don't go out to dinner with the team, or play cards in hotel rooms until late at night. But is does mean that I don't have to drag myself out of bed at check-in time and make sure everyone is where they need to be, because I know someone else is doing that check.

As far as the bus/plane issue - This is the second time in 5 years I have not traveled with the team. I've done the bus many times. But because my company does not allow for time off for robotics, I had to get down and back quickly.

So I think this is a definition issue. If you've ever seen our robot, you'd know that the "mentors" are not there only to work on the robot. If anything, we work on the students, and let the robot go by the way side. Part of our definition system is not identifing non-engineering mentors - we are all just mentors. I don't mind calling out some people as non-engineering, but we don't. It's all good.

I hope this helps - sorry to be so long winded. Let me know if you have any other questions.

If you need more proof, I have a sinking feeling that there will be a few videos of me from Atlanta on this website in a few days. The students are still trying to decide if they like "Bungee Brian" or "Screaming Brian" better.

[Joe J.]

Originally Posted by KathieK

Are you saying that because you are a "mentor" you are not part of the team?

OK Not2b is not only a part of the team HE IS THE HEART & SOUL OF IT. He is responsible for the students on our team under his Head Mentor-ship we have had only one injury on the team in 5 years, why? because he keeps us from doing something dumb. He not only mentors or team he has kept is alive and cheerful through our darkest & hardest years. He donates his evenings, weekends, vacation days, and his birthdays to be with the team. Brian is the kind of mentor that can fill your head with knowledge & inspire you to do your best then be cool enough to verse your in moon bounce basket ball later that day, and I have the greatest respect for him because of it.

We have a large team OF STUDENTS we only have 5 mentors for a team of around 70. Mentors are there as volunteers of their time they are there to teach and inspire us NOT BABYSIT US. After a full days worth of working on the robot, and managing the students the mentors deserve a break, their should be someone else to keep an eye on us after the competition.

[KathieK]

Thanks for your replies, I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. I have a different mindset on the issue, but as we all know there is no pattern for how a team should be formed and how it should function. I think as long as the mentor roles are clearly defined and everyone has the same expectations about who will be with the team outside of the competition then you will avoid any misunderstandings.

Sorry for getting off-topic in this thread.

[Nita]

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed this, but I find it interesting that in the first and the last two options, it says, 'My team' and for the middle two, 'Our team'. But anyway, my team didn't really have student leaders this year. Meetings were held to discuss different issues and to make decisions for the team. Right now, I need to get ready to leave for next class, so maybe I'll edit this post when I get home.

Originally Posted by Poll

What is your team organization like?
My team is governed by a single adult figure.
My team is not governed by a single adult figure.
Our team is (in my opinion) student run.
Our team is (in my opinion) adult run.
I would like my team to be more student run than it currently is.
I would like my team to be more mentor run than it currently is.

[JaneYoung]

One of the many things that FIRST gets right is the caliber of the people involved, judges, regional directors, volunteers, FIRST senior mentors, you name it - the caliber is there. The integrity is there.

I re-read your post before I wrote this. It was a thoughtful and polite post from someone who was excited about the FIRST experience and who would like to help his team develop and grow. Nothing wrong with that.

Jane
p.s. this is in response to Paul, sorry not to include quote.

[Daniel Morse]

Our team is set up on the principle of executive committee consisting of student leaders (president and 2 vice presidents), parent group leaders, and advisors. The main decisions and efforts at keeping the team moving forward are generally made by this body. I was the team president this year, and my father was the parent group leader. As student leader, I generally coordinate the student and equipment end of whatever event we are going to participate in, the logistics and supervision responsibilities usually go to the advisors, and fund raising (sponsorships) and other booster activities go to the parent group. During the build season, we employed a group based project structure. I was the project manager. I was in charge of the entire robot's production from beginning to end, including brainstorming, design, prototyping, manufacturing, and assembly. I often received valuable advice from much more experienced adult mentors on how to be effective at my job. Below me, we have sub group leaders, who head up production of the various machine components, and work closely with me in order for me to keep robot production on track. These are generally 3rd and 4th year students. Below them, we have sub-group members, who learn how the process of robot construction works while working to create a viable component for the robot with an experienced team member. This is the system that we have employed for my four years on the team, and it has worked very well.

[Nawaid Ladak]

Usually A Department Head works great for us

ex:;
Mechanical
Electrical/Programming/Controls
Animation/Other

They all report to the Overall Caption

he brings issues to the table between him, the head adult on our team, and our head engineer on our team.

Thats how things work, and it works fine

[aaeamdar]

Community-

This seems to be winding down in a good way. Thanks to all who've posted helpful information here. Team 1719 and I appreciate your input.

Thanks again for your thoughts,
Paul Dennis
Team 1719

[d.schneid@1719]

Actually this post does not reflect the majority of team 1719. Of the 15 original members of the team, only 2 agreed with the decision of this individual to place this posting.

[GaryVoshol]

I just came across this discussion and found it interesting.

Question for Tim and Not2B - I presume both of your teams are sponsored by schools. Do you then have a teacher or other school staff member who is the responsible party, essentially the chief chaperone? Our school board would not give us permission to be a group, much less travel, without a school district employee being in charge.

We are a smaller team, about 20 kids max. Much of our decision-making can be done Town Hall style, where everyone gets to put in an opinion, and consensus is achieved. We have two teachers that have the primary responsibility for organization and control. One of them is technical, the other focuses on Chairmans and other activities. We have a couple engineering mentors from our sponsoring corporations, and they are mentors, not chaperones. (Although they are adults and take adult reponsibilities when dealing with kids - for example, if they saw kids engaging in inappropriate behavior, they would not hesitate to get involved just because it "wasn't their job description" to discipline.) We have a couple of parents, myself included, who are actively involved in robot design and build, and are classified as "parent mentors". Most of the rest of the parents are involved as boosters and supporters in a variety of ways - fund raising, transportation, chaperones, food, etc.

[Not2B]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

I just came across this discussion and found it interesting.

Question for Tim and Not2B - I presume both of your teams are sponsored by schools. Do you then have a teacher or other school staff member who is the responsible party, essentially the chief chaperone? Our school board would not give us permission to be a group, much less travel, without a school district employee being in charge.

We are a smaller team, about 20 kids max. Much of our decision-making can be done Town Hall style, where everyone gets to put in an opinion, and consensus is achieved. We have two teachers that have the primary responsibility for organization and control. One of them is technical, the other focuses on Chairmans and other activities. We have a couple engineering mentors from our sponsoring corporations, and they are mentors, not chaperones. (Although they are adults and take adult reponsibilities when dealing with kids - for example, if they saw kids engaging in inappropriate behavior, they would not hesitate to get involved just because it "wasn't their job description" to discipline.) We have a couple of parents, myself included, who are actively involved in robot design and build, and are classified as "parent mentors". Most of the rest of the parents are involved as boosters and supporters in a variety of ways - fund raising, transportation, chaperones, food, etc.

Yep - that's about right. We have 1 teacher from the school who takes care of all the school red tape, and acts as the head shaperone. We've never asked the school about running without the teacher, nor would I want to. The non-parent mentors and the parent mentors also have different rules. Example: I don't have a student on the team, so I can't drive students around. But a parent can drive students around.

And of course, if the non-parent mentors see something dangerous, or think a student is going to do something stupid, we would obviously stop them or talk to them. I would hope that just because someone isn't an offical chaperone doesn't mean that wouldn't help out. Not being a chaperone just means I can go to dinner with my wife after a day of robots in Atlanta without worring about the students.

On the other hand, I just took the 8 hour night shift "chaperoneing" our 24 hour relay for life tent. So we do help out.

So when is 1188 going to win a chairman's award? I've been waiting...

[TimCraig]

Originally Posted by GaryV1188

I just came across this discussion and found it interesting.

Question for Tim and Not2B - I presume both of your teams are sponsored by schools. Do you then have a teacher or other school staff member who is the responsible party, essentially the chief chaperone? Our school board would not give us permission to be a group, much less travel, without a school district employee being in charge.

We are a smaller team, about 20 kids max. Much of our decision-making can be done Town Hall style, where everyone gets to put in an opinion, and consensus is achieved. We have two teachers that have the primary responsibility for organization and control. One of them is technical, the other focuses on Chairmans and other activities. We have a couple engineering mentors from our sponsoring corporations, and they are mentors, not chaperones. (Although they are adults and take adult reponsibilities when dealing with kids - for example, if they saw kids engaging in inappropriate behavior, they would not hesitate to get involved just because it "wasn't their job description" to discipline.) We have a couple of parents, myself included, who are actively involved in robot design and build, and are classified as "parent mentors". Most of the rest of the parents are involved as boosters and supporters in a variety of ways - fund raising, transportation, chaperones, food, etc.

Our team meets twice a week in the off season, one long meeting to work on the robot primarily and a short lunch meeting for administrative details. There is a faculty advisor and he handles the administrative meeting and is required to travel with the team on road trips. The school also has a policy of "approved mentors" who go through a background check, fingerprinting, and TB check. Only approved mentors can work alone with the kids. Last year there were 3 approved mentors working with the team, my wife and I and one other all in technical capacities.

It sounds like your team is about the same size as ours in terms of students but you have more adult involvement. As head mentors, my wife and I worked with the club 7 days a week for the approximately 7 weeks prior to ship. Since we were the only ones with keys to the lab, we were the first to arrive and the last to leave. The other tecnical mentor had job responsibilities and was the when he could. We have 3 parents who spent a little time working on the robot. One of my requirements to compete next year, aside from having the money up front, is more adult involvement both technical mentors and parental support.

I agree with Not2B, by the time I spend all day at the competition with the students and the robot, I want to relax a little. If I saw them doing something inappropriate, I'd weigh in and stop them. However, I don't want the added responsibility to try to follow them around and keep them out of trouble or entertain them. This year during the build I spent too much time trying to keep them in line while trying to produce a robot. I feel those activities are better handled by a parent. 300 hours building the robot and 10 hour days at the competition site are quite enough for me, thank you.

Another reason I don't want the responsibility of being a chaperone is I don't want the liability exposure. I don't have a lot of confidence that the school would vigorously try to protect me should a student do something stupid and get hurt and an irate parent try to sue me. And I have a pretty good idea if the stupidity students are capable of when on road trips. You can't be everywhere at once and things can and do happen.

[strawberymochi]

Our rookie team this year was organized by our teacher-mentor and although we successfully created a working robot, it was not a student-based team, in my opinion. It's true that dire times called for dire measures and he had to step in to help run the team. He divided our team very structurally creating so many different sub-levels, which I don't think worked 100% effectively.

Hopefully next year, our team will strive to be more student-run and will be able to take 100% responsibility for our robot and its performance .

I'm trying to search around on different structures for a team. This topic is really helping thanks ^^.

~Elaine