Saving Seats

[Jherbie53]

Originally Posted by David Brinza

The "how" is a question that FIRST needs to consider. When teams register for the event, the number of participants/spectators should be included in the application. FIRST should establish some criteria or lottery process to determine "where" the blocks are assigned to teams. There should be some buffer space around the blocks to allow people interested in particular teams outside of the division in which their team is placed. Some additional space for scouts, general public, and others would be appreciated.

Nationals are different from regionals, and I see your point on saving X# of seats for a team. Some teams don't know how many people are going to the event. But they usually have a better idea of how many are going to nationals than a regional. Like I said earlier, we were expecting 70-80 people for West Michigan, but thats our "Home" regional and families want to go.

Anyhoo, this is one subject, like many, that can be beaten to death until next year, without a whole lot of change to be seen.

[JaneYoung]

FIRST is on the move. Growth and expansion are happening.
Dean's homework will impact next year and certainly 2008 in a big way.
Saving seats/seating/clogged hallways/pit accessibility for inspectors, judges - all of this plus more will need continued monitoring and changes. It can only improve with stepped up planning and coordination during off season. The FIRST teams by and large try to emulate GP whenever possible - having a safe plan for seating and hallway crowds, traffic flow, etc., in place enables the teams to continue to strive towards Gracious Professionalism, moving away from quarreling over lack of space.

.02

[lallamavolador]

In Atlanta a team blocked off around 7 rows of seats and put caution do not cross tape on the sides. This I didn't like but unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that.

[thatphotochick]

my team does save seats, but most of the time they are being used. also, we will let people use them if they need them; i have never seen any of my team yell or remove someone from a seat. the removal of teams before the ceremony was ridiculous. a few members from MOE and my team went over to get good seats in front of the podium and were kicked out for something about FLL, but that section was EMPTY for the longest time. and the standing up during matches, sometimes when our robot was firing in the goal like crazy we'd stand up and cheer, but usually sat down quickly..or at least tried. but other teams do need to realize that that team's robot is on the field and the only real way that their driver, operator, and human player can see that we're cheering them on and not just leaving them out to dry is by standing and cheering. just a thought..it's not perfect and i don't think standing up the whole time is right, but for a little bit should be fine. (we've gotten yelled at about standing up during a match AND about not standing up during a match to show support.)

[Validius]

It would go a long way to open up the second level of the stadium for the entire event. One taim had a pair of binoculars on a tripod which made for excellent scouting from up high.

[ScoutingNerd175]

I understand the no saving seats rule on a per-day basis. For example, just because you sat in a seat on thursday does not mean it should still be yours on saturday. However, I do feel that this rule can be taken too far. Some team members will have to be moving back and forth. Even if my entire team shows up first thing in the morning, they will still not be able to park it there all day. If all my pit scouts come, put their stuff down, and go out scouting, am I to be considered "saving seats" if I am holding their spots for them? What if we have older people on our team who can't arrive early in the morning? Yes, only grab the amount of seats that you need. Yes, don't tape up seats and leave them there. However, if there were no saving seats it would be impossible for teams to ever sit together. I just don't think that it's logistically possible to have no saving seats. People will have to get up to do things and come back. Should we make the drive team sit far away from the rest of the team because they had to go down to the pit in the morning and we couldn't save a seat for them? So I agree that new rules should be made, but this could be taken to far.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

On this note I would like to draw attention to the utter ciaos that FIRST caused while, in my opinion, being very un-GP themselves by attempting to "save seats" before the finals and award ceremony in the section directly in front of the awards platform.

In previous years I seem to recall FIRST reserving a block of seats near the awards platform for team representatives designated to accept the awards on behalf of their team. I was working on the field for the full run of the competition this year, so I'm not sure if teams were told to send representatives to that section this year or not, but that may be the reason.

A number of years ago (Disney era), when an award was won the entire team would go up to shake hands with Dean, Woodie, etc. much like regionals work now. Given the mamoth size of the Championship event, it took an insane amount of time for team members to filter down to the stage from wherever they were sitting in the crowd (especially teams sitting in the back). As a result, a few years ago FIRST changed the awards structure, so two student representatives from each team would sit towards the front for easy access should their team win an award. With over 300 teams present, with 2 award representatives, that's over 600 seats to be reserved. In the interest of saving time given how long the awards ceremony already is, I have to say it's not a bad idea.

[ICE MAN]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

On this note I would like to draw attention to the utter ciaos that FIRST caused while, in my opinion, being very un-GP themselves by attempting to "save seats" before the finals and award ceremony in the section directly in front of the awards platform. Our team did not go to the Championship but myself and 2 other mentors traveled to Atlanta just to watch and checkout what was going on in the pits. Just before lunch on Saturday we grabbed 3 seats on the very top row of the lower section just in front of the awards platform halfway between the Galileo and Einstein fields. After lunch "officials" (some looked like FIRST and/or arena people and later some were even GA State Police) cleared the stands in that section 3 SEPARATE TIMES of all teams in front of us. They were (I think) trying to save seats for the teams that were going to make it into the finals on Einstein or something but they just had absolutely no control of the situation. They never "roped off" the area with yellow tape to let people know not to sit there so people would come and sit and fill-up the section and then the "officials" would go through row by row telling everyone to get up and sit somewhere else. They did this 3 separate times! Teams would have been sitting there for quite a while and then have to move. I can specifically remember all of 340 and 1880 among the dozens of teams sitting in front of us that were forced to loose their seats. When the awards ceremony started the whole section was empty and then it was basically just a free for all again. It looked kind of stupid when Woodie started the ceremony and the whole section in front of him was empty. The whole section of the "good seats" then only partially filled throughout the ceremony and final rounds. I thought this was totally unfair to the teams that were in the seats who were told they had to leave for no real reason just so that other teams (who wound up being just anyone not just the Einstein teams) only partially filled the section. If FIRST would practice what they preach then this kind of ciaos wouldn't have happened. The seats should have been first come first served rather than first come first removed, second come second removed, third come third removed, fourth come oh well go ahead and sit because everything has started and we have this big hole we need to fill because it looks bad in the photos and cameras to have a bunch of empty seats in front of the awards platform. It sort of ruined the whole photo op for endless sea for multicolored team uniforms. Since the 3 of us were sitting on the very top row on the walking level we watched this whole debacle unfold over and over in front of us. I don't know who's idea it was to "try" to save that whole section but it didn't work out so well.

I hate to interject here, but the seats that you refer to in front of the Einstein Field and the award ceremony were reserved for all of the judges, officials, and volunteers who made Nationals run. So I think it is fair for FIRST to section off some of the best seats in the house for those who help the event run. This in my opinion is a very GP move by FIRST.
-Cory

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by ICE MAN

I hate to interject here, but the seats that you refer to in front of the Einstein Field and the award ceremony were reserved for all of the judges, officials, and volunteers who made Nationals run. So I think it is fair for FIRST to section off some of the best seats in the house for those who help the event run. This in my opinion is a very GP move by FIRST.
-Cory

Cory, I totally agree that it would be GREAT if FIRST reserved those seats for the judges, volunteers, and other officials, however, if that was the plan it was just poorly executed. We were sitting there from about 11:30 until after everything was over and I never heard any announcement to that effect. All they would have to do is rope the whole section off with yellow tape at lunch and put up a few signs stating "This section is reserved for VIPs" and FIRST could have avoided a lot of ciaos. There would have been no need to call in the Police. The only people sitting in that section when the awards ceremony started were the judges sitting in the first few rows. They were obviously the only ones clued into the reserved seating section.

[dhitchco]

Here's a couple of suggestions for 2007 (as this "seat-saving ritual" seems to be more of an issue at the championships than at regionals).

1) Each team should mandate that 100% of their team IMMEDIATELY go to the stands and NOT "hover" around the pits at the beginning of each day. I know that the action is in the pit area, but it really doesn't help to have teammates hanging around. Doing that will create a good team spirit in the stands right away. Plus, the judges/safety people can't see your pit if 20+ of your own team members are haning around.

2) Each team should reserve their own "front row" for outside guests and actively be on the watch for families, young children and invite them to come down front and see the action. Definately the gracious thing to do! maybe even make-up signs "guests welcome" or "room available"...

3) Runners with match scouting forms traversing to the pits should have aisle seats and should NOT block/stand in the aisles. Also, in the USA, we drive on the right-hand side of the road, so people in aisles should abide by that traffic flow (maybe even tape some "up" and "down" arrows in the aisles.......my pet peeve was constantly zig-zagging left-right up the aisles while carrying the video camera, etc because people were coming down the "wrong" side of the road....Just a personal thing......

4) And....speaking of tape. I totally agree that teams should NOT ever be "taping-off" seats unless they're actively sitting in those seats. Use them or lose them or let others "borrow" your seats.

Yes, it's only gonna get more crowded in future years and we don't want FIRST to start to mandate even more rules. We can self-police this by coming up with good ideas besides taping-off sections. It's perfectly OK for FIRST themselves to cordon-off seats during the ceremonies for guests, award recipients, etc.

Hey, even better, how about having a "dignitary" section where guests for the currently-playing match can come and video/photo their match and then rotate-out with the next team? (not including the on-floor media rep.) There are lots of creative, positive ideas we can come up with....

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by Karthik

I'm sorry to beat this to death, but despite three clear mentioning in the manual, it seems that some teams still do not understand that the saving of seats is not permitted. This rule was broken numerous times in the Curie stands during qualifying. What made it this even worse, was that when my scouts pointed out these rules, they were verbally abused and told they "weren't being very graciously professional".

I arrived at the location in question right after the confrontation occured, to watch my teams robot perform in its next match.

The fact is that there were many open seats available in front of Curie field when this particular incident occured, all of them providing a good close viewing position suitable for scouts. There were several rows of seats taped off with no one in them (an activity that I am not fond of), and anyone could have sat down in these seats without confrontation. There were also plenty of open seats.

Regardless of the rules, people save seats. People who would prefer to follow the rules can find themselves forced to save seats because everyone else does, producing a catch 22. It is not allowed in the rules, but it will happen anyway. This is human nature. When you run into that, instead of causing a confrontation, pick an open seat, sit down, and watch the match. It is usually not that difficult to find an open seat.

I run into "saved seats" quite often when I make the quick trip out from my support position in the pits to watch my team's robot perform in a match. When I do, I calmly explain that I will be there only for the duration of my team's match and there is rarely any conflict or concern. There is no profit margin in reading people the riot act with regard to the rules. If there is a conflict in spite of my being as accomodating as possible, I move to another seat. I almost never have to do that, and there is no sense in complaining on the rare instances when I do.

If you make an effort to avoid conflict, you are not likely to get one. If, on the other hand, you make an effort to cause a confrontation when interacting with others, you are likely to get what you seek. This is an important lesson to teach teenage students, especially those who are prone to causing confrontations. It does not matter whether you are right, or wrong, with respect to the rules. Causing a confrontation is not GP and we should learn to avoid this behavior, regardless of the situation. This is one of the things that we are supposed to be learning through our participation in FIRST.


Eugene

[Ken Loyd]

This year at the Arizona Regional we decided to avoid the problem. We sat as a group behind the blue driver station on the side of the arena. There was plenty of room to spread out and the view was not all that bad. When we competed, we went to the cheering section with the rest of the "fun bunch".

It was amusing at times to watch the stands in front of the field. Large blocks of seats were unused much of the time. Teams were standing and blocking the view of the match. We met several first time visitors who could not find a seat elsewhere and had a great time talking about FIRST and FIRST Lego League.

Saving seats is not right but after eight years of fighting, we gave up and had a great time.

Ken

[Greg Perkins]

Here's my beef. I didnt attend Atlanta, however I did attend BAE. I was formally without a team, yet I still am sort of attached to my former team and alma-matter. So I get there, and sit with the team who I've been on for the past 2 years. I got kicked out by a new parent who didn't know who I was, but it was very rude and the way she said it was inappropriate. I also think people who commute from the pits to the stands frequently should not be represented in the stands by someone's jacket or backpack. During lunch I approached a security gaurd and politely explained my issue with them, and when the team came back from lunch the gaurd had a nice converstaion with that parent.
We used to save seats when I was on 151 back in my youth, and we would save our seats per day, and when the next day came those seats were fair game. So we never argued or whatnot we were polite in our savings (We also had these neat seat back covers we used to use) But I agree with what the majority of you are saying, we should not save seats now that first is so big. I feel bad for the public who come to watch and get treated like garbage.

[J Flex 188]

Essentially you are telling us all to ignore the rules of saving seats. Despite the fact that we do not ignore rules about safety glasses, tape, and all sorts of robot and non-robot related rules. I think that many people who are reading this thread and many people in general would sternly object to this.

The fact of the matter is, if there were so many close and good viewing positions as you said, why could some of your team not shift to accommodate the scouts? There were no more than 6 individuals, meaning less than one half of a front row. Additionally, the team was just there for the match, but for the day. The argument that "we got there first" does not hold water in my opinion. Unless the team that is holding those seats has a full row in attendance, there is no right for them to deny others an ideal seat. There was simply no reason for you to not allow the scouts to sit. At the same time, if I recall correctly, there were not enough members of your team to make up the full row.

No one seeks a confrontation. If that were the case, I am quite sure FIRST would be no where near the level it is today. However, why do you suggest that there is something wrong with asking individuals to allow people to sit where there are no other individuals? The fundamental fact is yes, you may have gotten there first, but if there are empty seats, it is the right of other individuals to sit there. Support for your team is important and that can be accomplished by being as vocal as possible from anywhere in the arena =).

One last thing, as a teenage student, recently graduated, I sense a distinct level of disdain for members of my age group. We may be young, but we have all read the rules in this case and know the official stance. We are not boorish nor immature. One of the things that we are also taught in FIRST is to strive to be the best that we can be, which includes questioning when rules are not followed or not enforced.

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

I arrived at the location in question right after the confrontation occured, to watch my teams robot perform in its next match.

The fact is that there were many open seats available in front of Curie field when this particular incident occured, all of them providing a good close viewing position suitable for scouts. There were several rows of seats taped off with no one in them (an activity that I am not fond of), and anyone could have sat down in these seats without confrontation. There were also plenty of open seats.

Regardless of the rules, people save seats. People who would prefer to follow the rules can find themselves forced to save seats because everyone else does, producing a catch 22. It is not allowed in the rules, but it will happen anyway. This is human nature. When you run into that, instead of causing a confrontation, pick an open seat, sit down, and watch the match. It is usually not that difficult to find an open seat.

I run into "saved seats" quite often when I make the quick trip out from my support position in the pits to watch my team's robot perform in a match. When I do, I calmly explain that I will be there only for the duration of my team's match and there is rarely any conflict or concern. There is no profit margin in reading people the riot act with regard to the rules. If there is a conflict in spite of my being as accomodating as possible, I move to another seat. I almost never have to do that, and there is no sense in complaining on the rare instances when I do.

If you make an effort to avoid conflict, you are not likely to get one. If, on the other hand, you make an effort to cause a confrontation when interacting with others, you are likely to get what you seek. This is an important lesson to teach teenage students, especially those who are prone to causing confrontations. It does not matter whether you are right, or wrong, with respect to the rules. Causing a confrontation is not GP and we should learn to avoid this behavior, regardless of the situation. This is one of the things that we are supposed to be learning through our participation in FIRST.


Eugene

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by J Flex 188

One last thing, as a teenage student, recently graduated, I sense a distinct level of disdain for members of my age group. We may be young, but we have all read the rules in this case and know the official stance. We are not boorish nor immature. One of the things that we are also taught in FIRST is to strive to be the best that we can be, which includes questioning when rules are not followed or not enforced.

I can ignore your continued effort to produce conflict, but a personal attack has no place in this discussion. Do you really think that I have disdain for members of your age group, given that I mentor a FIRST team without vested personal interest? You have clearly missed the point of my post...