A different spin on things.

[Matt Attallah]

NEW YORK (CNN) -- We Americans like to think we're a pretty smart people, even when evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. And nowhere is that evidence more overwhelming than in the Middle East. History in the Middle East is everything, and we Americans seem to learn nothing from it.

President Harry Truman took about 20 minutes to recognize the state of Israel when it declared independence in 1948. Since then, more than 58 years of war, terrorism and blood-letting have led to the events of the past week.

Even now, as Katyusha rockets rain down on northern Israel and Israeli fighter jets blast Hezbollah targets in southern Lebanon, we simultaneously decry radical Islamist terrorism and Israel's lack of restraint in defending itself.

And the U.S. government, which wants no part of a cease-fire until Israel is given every opportunity to rescue its kidnapped soldiers and destroy as many Hezbollah and Hezbollah armaments as possible, urges caution in the interest of preserving a nascent and fragile democratic government in Lebanon. Could we be more conflicted?

While the United States provides about $2.5 billion in military and economic aid to Israel each year, U.S. aid to Lebanon amounts to no more than $40 million. This despite the fact that the per capita GDP of Israel is among the highest in the world at $24,600, nearly four times as high as Lebanon's GDP per capita of $6,200.

Lebanon's lack of wealth is matched by the Palestinians -- three out of every four Palestinians live below the poverty line. Yet the vast majority of our giving in the region flows to Israel. This kind of geopolitical inconsistency and shortsightedness has contributed to the Arab-Israeli conflict that the Western world seems content to allow to perpetuate endlessly.

After a week of escalating violence, around two dozen Israelis and roughly 200 Lebanese have died. That has been sufficient bloodshed for United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan and British Prime Minister Tony Blair to join in the call for an international security force, ignoring the fact that a U.N. force is already in Southern Lebanon, having failed to secure the border against Hezbollah's incursions and attacks and the murder and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

As our airwaves fill with images and sounds of exploding Hezbollah rockets and Israeli bombs, this seven-day conflict has completely displaced from our view another war in which 10 Americans and more than 300 Iraqis have died during the same week. And it is a conflict now of more than three years duration that has claimed almost 15,000 lives so far this year alone.

An estimated 50,000 Iraqis and more than 2,500 American troops have been killed since the insurgency began in March of 2003, which by some estimates is more than the number of dead on both sides of the Arab-Israeli conflict over the past 58 years of wars and intifadas.

Yet we have seen no rescue ships moving up the Euphrates for Iraqis who are dying in their streets, markets and mosques each day. French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin has not leaped to Baghdad as he did Beirut. And there are no meetings of the Arab League, and no U.S. diplomacy with Egypt, Syria and Jordan directed at ending the Iraqi conflict.

In the Middle East, where is our sense of proportion? Where is our sense of perspective? Where is our sense of decency? And, finally, just how smart are we?

[KenWittlief]

just how smart are we?

how smart are we? as a race? as a nation? as a political party?

show me a part of the universe where humans have stopped killing each other, and we will follow their lead.

When you have nations like Iran, who's president has called for the state of Israel to be driven into the sea, I dont think the problem is that we are giving too much money to one group and not enough to the other.

Its not as if the world has had no interest in the events of the middle east for the last 50 years - just the opposite. The events that happen in this part of the world effect the global economy.

Military leaders dont speak of whether or not there will be an all out nuclear war in the middle east, they say its only a matter of when?

When two groups oppose each other to the point of war, history shows us the conflict only ends when one side is completely overthrown.

So what are we to do?

[Madison]

What's the use in copying a news article, in its entirety, and posting it here while adding nothing of consequence to it? If I'd wanted to read the news, I'd have read the news.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

show me a part of the universe where humans have stopped killing each other, and we will follow their lead.

Why follow when you can lead?
<looks to the microcosm of the world known in our little circle as FIRST>
Yep.. Lead.

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Why follow when you can lead?
<looks to the microcosm of the world known in our little circle as FIRST>
Yep.. Lead.

Elgin's right. Education is the answer, well educated people will choose diplomacy, cohabitation, and peace over war in which there will be no winners just losers...

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Why follow when you can lead?
<looks to the microcosm of the world known in our little circle as FIRST>
Yep.. Lead.

agreed.

Originally Posted by skimoose

Elgin's right. Education is the answer, well educated people will choose diplomacy, cohabitation, and peace over war in which there will be no winners just losers...

hmmm... that is a pretty high hurdle to jump isn't it. The biggest problem is that there are too many people focused on trying to "have a life" and thus in with that the only thing on their mind, it makes it really hard for teachers to teach people how to run the world. How we can shift people's attention from having a life to making it better for everyone is something I'd have to ask God about because I am clueless.

[David55]

Truthfully, I don't understand what the actual point of posting this article is, but I would just like to say that I have never seen so much BS in one article.


In my opinion, this thread should be removed. this is not the place for political discussion and nothing good and positive can come out of here.

[Matt Attallah]

You're serious?

It's not getting nasty. I want the world to realise what is going on. There are facts stated here.

Everything I have posted here and in my other thread I have posted in every fourm that I am apart of. I want people to get the WHOLE picture. It's not getting nasty at all. I DON'T see a problem with this thread. People know me here, if I think it would of caused an uprawr i would of NOT posted this, but I honestly DO NOT see a problem.

[David55]

Originally Posted by Matt Attallah

You're serious?

It's not getting nasty. I want the world to realise what is going on. There are facts stated here.

Everything I have posted here and in my other thread I have posted in every fourm that I am apart of. I want people to get the WHOLE picture. It's not getting nasty at all. I DON'T see a problem with this thread. People know me here, if I think it would of caused an uprawr i would of NOT posted this, but I honestly DO NOT see a problem.

Sorry, I may have misunderstood your message. At first it was kind of unclear what you were trying to say because it started talking about the situation in the ME and then moved to talking about the war in Iraq and how it has been forgotten about.

Just out of curiosity...what "whole picture" do you want people to see? what is your standing about the situation in the ME?

(I apologize for any spelling mistakes. For some odd reason I am unable to open the spellchecker.)

[Matt Attallah]

Everything for what it is.

Israel is claiming they are after Hezbollah - yet screwing EVERYONE there, INCLUDING AMERICANS.

How is this even 1/2 fair. IMHO, now if any Arab country did that to Israel - you'd see all hell breaks loose and the US would get involved w/o any hesitation.

After reading this post - I DO want to say that yes, I am 1/2 Palestinian but that has NO BEARING WHAT SO EVER on my views. I was born an American and I have very good friends that are of Jewish Decent. THIS DOES NOT CLOUD MY THOUGHTS before it becomes a huge flame on my part.

Ever watch the Arab network news via Satellite? You should, that'll give you both sides of the story...

[Dylan]

What I find stupid is that this is really all over a patch of barren desert, just because both sides say that their god gave it to them. Perhaps they should consider the following:

1. Isn't it possible that if their god gave it to both of them that they are supposed to share it?

2.It's desert. IMHO, if god gives you a big patch of barren desert, he doesn't like you too much. Why couldn't it have been a lush forest, or a prairie?


(please note that I am only looking at this from a logical standpoint, and not in any way insulting these people's culture or religion. I also do not have any religious bias, because I am not religious. So please don't neg or flame me. I am only speaking my mind)

[Matt Attallah]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I find stupid is that this is really all over a patch of barren desert, just because both sides say that their god gave it to them. Perhaps they should consider the following:

1. Isn't it possible that if their god gave it to both of them that they are supposed to share it?

2.It's desert. IMHO, if god gives you a big patch of barren desert, he doesn't like you too much. Why couldn't it have been a lush forest, or a prairie?


(please note that I am only looking at this from a logical standpoint, and not in any way insulting these people's culture or religion. I also do not have any religious bias, because I am not religious. So please don't neg or flame me. I am only speaking my mind)

Ya know, that's the truth - but religon is a powerful thing. I guess it's eather all or nothing, and it's not so much that god gave them a desert - it's what happened there that sacred...

[Steve W]

I will ask that all keep this thread civil and continue the discussion. No matter how you look at this thread there is a mixture of religion and politics. There have been reports to the mods. I will continue to monitor and as long as all remains civil the thread will remain open. Thanks in advance

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I find stupid is that this is really all over a patch of barren desert, just because both sides say that their god gave it to them. Perhaps they should consider the following:

1. Isn't it possible that if their god gave it to both of them that they are supposed to share it?

2.It's desert. IMHO, if god gives you a big patch of barren desert, he doesn't like you too much. Why couldn't it have been a lush forest, or a prairie?

maybe we can turn this thread into a historical review.

For as long as I can remember, I have never heard any representative of the nation of Israel state the land is theirs because God gave it to them. From what I have read only a small percent of the Israeli people could be classified as extreemly religious (the ones who want to rebuild the temple, re-institute ritual animal sacrifices like the days of Moses and David...) 95% of the Jewish people in Israel hold their religious beliefs much like we do here in the US - People believe in God, and have religious convictions, but we dont start killing people because of our religion.

Before it was Israel (1946? 47?) it was Palestine. Not the nation of Palestine, the British colony of Palestine. The UN took control of the land away from the British, and formed a new independent nation: Israel.

and everyone lived happily everafter... Ok, it was not all cut and dry - there were many Palestinian people who lost land and homes when this happened in the late 40's AND the surrounding (Arab) nations banded together and immediately attacked the new nation of Israel. It was a mess from day One.

To say that this part of the middle east is a barren desert is absurd. You mostly only see video of the desert on TV news, or the ancient parts of the cities like Jerusalem - but modern day Israel is one of the most advanced, most agriculturally cultivated, most productive nations in the world. Its not because God made it one way or another, its because the people living there made it that way.

With water and energy you can turn the desert into a resort. Need a local example: Las Vegas.

Having said all this, I believe 99% of the people in the middle east, on both sides of the conflict, would be happy to live together in peace. Its the 1% who can only stay in their positions of power and control and self-importance, who keep pulling the situation down to the lowest denominator. People like the leaders of Iran, who publicly call for the nation of Israel to be wiped off the map - the extremist who think that strapping a bomb to yourself and murdering men, women and children is what God wants you to do.

As long as people keep listening to these lunatics, the conflict will never end. This conflict has nothing to do with God, or what God wants

you got a bunch of people running around who are not interested in being students, or business people, or engineers or farmers or production workers - not when they can be the leader of "freedom fighters" or do-it-yourself religious leaders, or you can become a martyr in a glorious "religious" war.

[Jaine Perotti]

Extreme nationalism by itself is extremely dangerous because of it's pseudo-religious qualities. In the Middle East, where nationalism and religion are almost one in the same, a particularly volitile situation is present.

Any time you get two factions who believe with all of their hearts and souls that their viewpoint is unequivocally the right viewpoint (a result of extremism and nationalism), it is inevitable that the conflict between those two groups will be long, drawn out, and bloody - as has been the case in the Middle East for hundreds of years.

Going back to the time of the Crusades, you will find that the motivation behind those conflicts was extremely similar to those of today's. Each side vehemently argued that the Holy Land rightfully theirs to own, too caught up in their ideological fervor to consider reality. And the reality is that no matter how hard you fight - even if you win - the opposing side will feel disenfranchised and disrespected, and will eventually want to reclaim what was once theirs. Even with a percieved "victory", the conflict is far from over.

This cycle continues to this day. It is fueled stronger than most cyclical conflicts because religious extremism is more enduring and deep-seated than the personal vendetta. An unfortunate aspect of religion is it's pervasive psychological power - which is easily abused and turned into a form of brainwashing by extremists.

It is simply incredible how people can be stripped of their humanity to such an extent that they feel motivated to die violently, killing innocent people in the name of God. The fact that anyone would have such a death wish indicates severe psychological damage - it goes against every human evolutionary instinct.

This cycle reminds me of a childhood game I used to play - many of you probably did this too - when every time a certain person said something, you would ask them, "Why?" - and when they responded, you would ask them "Why?" again, and this would continue over and over again until the person was mentally exhausted (most likely scenario), or you got tired of asking.

In that game, someone had to give in and let go. So do the people who are involved in a cyclical conflict. The only way to break such a cycle is to reach a point of compromise. Each faction has to give a little, but they are motivated to do so because they desperately want to end the conflict.

This is the only thing which will end the struggle in the Middle East. Unfortunately, this will be a difficult point to reach. There will always be someone who wants to keep on fighting. Ideological fervor continues to make them ignorant of the mutual relief that peace would bring.

But peaceful coexistance is not fundamentally impossible between Jews, Muslims, and Christians. In the Middle Ages (beginning in around AD 912), all three religions were allowed to coexist under Moorish rule in Spain. While non-Muslims weren't given completely equal status, they were not targets of violence, and were allowed to practice their religion privately. This tolerance allowed intellectual and cultural exchange to flourish. It didn't last forever, but it is at least a small beacon of hope - if only people were to compromise in the name of peace.

-- Jaine