Computer-Assisted Scouting

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by ewankoff

our school district issued every student their own laptop. in the past years we have tried to develop programs that each scout could use their own laptop to update a scouting database. unfortunatly we had problems integrating these programs with our team ad the network and they did not work. last year we combined paper scouting with a computer database. scouts would fill out of sheet of 4 matches where they scouted the same spot 4 times. then the sheets were run up to a person inputing it into the excel spread sheet. this method helped us get into the finals in palmetto last year.

Yeah... and it was me and joe putting all that in! That was terrible! Don't recommend doing that again.

As a alternative, we created an access database, you can check it out:

That's what I'm planning to do this year with scouting. I'm going to be running a Microsoft Access class during our training sessions (I learned it over the summer), and we hope to build a database with forms and everything and then hook it up to our wireless server (no internet, just server-based forums and such we set up for each regional) so that with our laptops (which have wireless built in), have round scouters fill out the forms, send them to the database, and have a live update. Someone will be up top overseeing everything, and sending reports down to the pits either by a forum post or by a printer sheet, or a telephone call. Hopefully, I'll be able to post the database on Delphi once it's finished. But we'll have to see what happens.

The Canuck

[Dylan Gramlich]

On SparX we write down scouting information on our "scouting cards", these also have pictures of the robot on the back. We then input the information into an excell spreadsheet which organizes the data very nicely so that we can then narrow down our choices if we are picking.

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by Dylan Gramlich

On SparX we write down scouting information on our "scouting cards", these also have pictures of the robot on the back. We then input the information into an excell spreadsheet which organizes the data very nicely so that we can then narrow down our choices if we are picking.

We used Greg Needel's Excel program last year (worked very nicely, got us into finals at Palmetto *cough* 50% Scouting *cough*), but the problem with Excel is input is slow (you have to manually go from box to box) and navigating through all the spreadsheets for teams is time-consuming. With Access, we can create a drop-down menu for all the teams, and customize the tab-advancing layout of the input forms (ex. what box you'll type in next when you press the tab key). We can also print out copies of those forms if we have to do manual writing, but I've been told by the team website/internet/server/email/technology in general guy that we can set it up, as I said above, with a live update so once they send it in it will go to everyone connected with permission to the server and has the file, which is easier than last year. We had a huge backlog by the end of the qualifiers day. We ended up only doing the rest of the inputting for the teams we would be facing the next day, and then scrambling to put the rest of the info in for the teams we would face in the finals with 95 and 16 as alliance partners (thanks again guys!). I'm hoping the Access program will work much better. If we see you at a regional and you have Access, we'll be happy to give you the file (not the info! Well, maybe- TBD), and again, I'll try to post it on Delphi when it's finished.


The Canuck

[FourPenguins]

Originally Posted by [527]phil

EDIT: A few people told me that Wireless networks are banned at the competitions, so I'll have to figure out something else.

A quick search of last year's "At the Event" section has yielded no such rule. Does anyone know the rule number or what section I can find it in? I seem to remember people picking up on WiFi networks being run by teams last year at competitions (Nintendo DSs are excellent network sniffers.)

[Starke]

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

We used Greg Needel's Excel program last year (worked very nicely, got us into finals at Palmetto *cough* 50% Scouting *cough*), but the problem with Excel is input is slow (you have to manually go from box to box) and navigating through all the spreadsheets for teams is time-consuming.The Canuck

I found this problem as well. The students an I came up with hyperlinking to each team page from a main page in the same document. On each team page, we also hyperlinked back to the main page. This took a lot of time to do, but it saved a lot of time in the end.

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by 11Ed71

A quick search of last year's "At the Event" section has yielded no such rule. Does anyone know the rule number or what section I can find it in? I seem to remember people picking up on WiFi networks being run by teams last year at competitions (Nintendo DSs are excellent network sniffers.)

We had no problems setting up our network at Palmetto; even got a couple of teams using it. Maybe the ban on WiFi relates to networks with internet access, and not simply a server, like ours?????

The Canuck

[Sean Schuff]

Originally Posted by fsayre

I started to talk to the guys responsible for this:
http://stampscouting.org/

It is a collaboration of PNW team members to great a web browser based database to be used with networked computers. The concept is great but there were too many late minute issues to be worked out for us to use the system.

Team 93 had mentors and students working on STAMP last year. After several years of using VB enhanced Excel spreadsheets we decided that STAMP was the best alternative and had the benefit of an existing platform on which to build. At all 3 competitions we attended last year (Buckeye, Wisconsin, Champs) we set up our wireless network and let the data fly. At this point input into the system is only allowed for our team members (garbage in = garbage out) so we would be getting and giving accurate information. We did share any and all of the data with whoever wanted it and attracted a few interested individuals and teams in Atlanta. Our lead scouting mentor went so far as to put a match predictor into the program which accurately predicted our last three matches at the Wisconsin Regional. This sort of capability can be a real double-edged sword if you believe in self-fulfilling prophecies.

Bottom line is we like making our decisions based on cold, hard facts but when it comes down to it there is a certain "gut feeling" that can't be ignored. Instinct is one of those things you can't assign a number to.

Team 93 will remain a PC based scouting team. Faster, easier, more accurate, and a whole lot less paper to lug around!

My 2 pesos.

Sean

[Cory]

We used a system that sounds similar in principle to 25's.

Im not sure about any technical details, as that sort of thing isn't my specialty, but the kids that wrote the program did a fantastic job. It came in very handy for us throughout the season.

The only thing I didn't necessarily like about computer based scouting is that it becomes way too easy to just let the computer tell you that team xyz is statistically the best, and to go solely off the rankings. The scouting guys would tell us that the program says one team is the best bet for us to pick, when the mentors and drive team all thought that other robots fit our strategy better, among other things. You have to be careful to supplement your personal knowledge of teams with the computer, rather than rely on the computer.

[Bill Moore]

Originally Posted by 11Ed71

A quick search of last year's "At the Event" section has yielded no such rule. Does anyone know the rule number or what section I can find it in? I seem to remember people picking up on WiFi networks being run by teams last year at competitions (Nintendo DSs are excellent network sniffers.)

There was no rule banning wireless networks at competitions. This is just a FIRST Urban Legend. In fact, one team was actively trying to collaborate with other teams by sharing a wireless network for scouting.

We need someone to start "www.FIRSTsnopes.com"

[themagic8ball]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread but Team 537 used MARRS this year. It is a paper-enter-into-database method many teams used and I was responsible for writing the Database portion of it. I did it in PHP and MySQL and we had a very efficient system of multiple data-enterers and one printer to print out scouting reports (with pictures) of each team. It was invaluable during the course of competition to have up to the minute stats on each team. I will be once again writing MARRS this year and making it available for other teams to use.

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by Cory

The only thing I didn't necessarily like about computer based scouting is that it becomes way too easy to just let the computer tell you that team xyz is statistically the best, and to go solely off the rankings. The scouting guys would tell us that the program says one team is the best bet for us to pick, when the mentors and drive team all thought that other robots fit our strategy better, among other things. You have to be careful to supplement your personal knowledge of teams with the computer, rather than rely on the computer.

That is why it is important to have an opinion box on a form where a scouter can put in an opinion thing, ex. where a robot did not get up on the ramp but didn't because they didn't have enough time or were blocking the other ramp. As you said, the problem with plain statistics is that they sometimes hide the real details.

Conclusion: statistics are great, but personal opinion is critical as well.

The Canuck

[Nitroxextreme]

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

That is why it is important to have an opinion box on a form where a scouter can put in an opinion thing, ex. where a robot did not get up on the ramp but didn't because they didn't have enough time or were blocking the other ramp. As you said, the problem with plain statistics is that they sometimes hide the real details.

Conclusion: statistics are great, but personal opinion is critical as well.

The Canuck

Couldn't be put better...

Opinion as well as talking with the team personally does wonders...
some team may have been trying the whole regional to do one thing and did that one thing OK...but in their last match they figure out that they need to be doing something completely different and then they just kick $@#$@#$@#

[Cory]

Originally Posted by robotcanuck1676

That is why it is important to have an opinion box on a form where a scouter can put in an opinion thing, ex. where a robot did not get up on the ramp but didn't because they didn't have enough time or were blocking the other ramp. As you said, the problem with plain statistics is that they sometimes hide the real details.

Conclusion: statistics are great, but personal opinion is critical as well.

The Canuck

Sometimes personal opinion is no good either.

One of our scouts said the team that played the best defense on us all year long played "poor defense", and they were watching the match it happened in

[Graham Donaldson]

Originally Posted by Cory

Sometimes personal opinion is no good either.

One of our scouts said the team that played the best defense on us all year long played "poor defense", and they were watching the match it happened in

Yes, which is why statistics are also good.

An update to everyone monitoring this thread, or anyone interested in computer scouting in general: I am setting up a test Access database with last year's data from the Palmetto regional. When finished, I will see how I upload it (either here or as a white paper? I dunno), and you guys can take a look at it, and give feedback. Maybe use it as a base for yours for this year???

The Canuck

[JamesBrown]

Well for any one who doesn't know I am in college now. I will be mentoring a team up here as well as stopping by 1568 a couple of time. However I wont be any where near as involved as I was the last 2 years. I have been the programmer for the last 2 years on 1568 however my interest is almost completely in scouting and strategy. I figure in my free time at school I can work on scouting. I am on the fence about whether I want to write a program from scratch to do scouting or if I want to use access. But in the end I will do one or the other.

If I was to come up with a good system that would scout all the criteria that effect this years game would other teams with less free time be interested? I would plan to make it very general so you could just input a team list for any regional and use it for that regional. If you would be interested would you find it fair that in exchange for using the program/database you would be asked to send me your scouting data for that regional so I could put it online somewhere where every one using the program/database could get that info and use it for their scouting at later regionals or championships, let me know what you think.

James