YMTC - Manufacturing

[Steve W]

Team Red is designing a new transmission. The plans are completed by June 30, 2006. The prototype must be built and tested by November. Parts are ordered. Not just for the prototype but also for the competition bot. This is legal under the 2006 rules. Now some of the parts need machining which a sponsor has graciously offered to do. Now comes the question. Because of the cost to the sponsor it would be easier to do all parts at once rather than some now and some after kickoff. If the sponsor manufactures the parts for the 2007 bot and keeps them till Wednesday after kickoff, would that be considered as illegal under the 2006 rules? I understand that the 2007 rules may differ and that they cannot be counted into the equation.

[Hieb]

I would have to believe that it is a violation of the rules. While I can understand the advantages to the sponsor for doing all of the parts at the same time, it is still fabrication of a non-COTS part outside of the build window.

[MikeDubreuil]

Personally, it doesn't matter to me- as long as it was done for cost and not time savings. According to R16, this example would be against the rules. The parts were fabricated outside of the build season.

Originally Posted by <R16>

During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and robot shipment deadline, teams are
to design and fabricate all the components and mechanisms required to complete their robot. They are
encouraged to use all the materials, sources and resources available to them that are in compliance with the
rules of the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition. As the robot shipment deadline approaches, all work on the
robot must cease and the robot must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire robot (including all
FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the robot)
must be crated and out of team hands by the robot shipment deadline.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Personally, it doesn't matter to me- as long as it was done for cost and not time savings. According to R16, this example would be against the rules. The parts were fabricated outside of the build season.

Umm, what about the design part of R16? Designing the transmission outside the build season is also not allowed, or??

Don

[KenWittlief]

During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and robot shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the components and mechanisms required to complete their robot.

YIKES!

WHAT?!

HOLY COW! YIKES!

no more using battery holders or motor mounts or modular electronics boxes that were designed in previous years?

No more using designs posted by other teams on CD from previous years?!

YIKES! (this changes everything)

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

YIKES!

WHAT?!

HOLY COW! YIKES!

no more using battery holders or motor mounts or modular electronics boxes that were designed in previous years?

No more using designs posted by other teams on CD from previous years?!

YIKES! (this changes everything)

Quoted was rule 16 but if you look at previous rule you will read:

<R15> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their robots. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and
conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS items they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final robot is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation. Any MECHANISMS assembled prior to the Kick-off presentation may be used for prototyping or educational purposes, but MAY NOT be used on the final ROBOT.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Quoted was rule 16 but if you look at previous rule you will read:

<R15> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their robots. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and
conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS items they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final robot is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation. Any MECHANISMS assembled prior to the Kick-off presentation may be used for prototyping or educational purposes, but MAY NOT be used on the final ROBOT.

ok, you can design and build a proof of concept mechanism, or even prototypes, but the other rule says you must 'design' all the parts you need after the kickoff meeting.

If you copy a tranmission design from CD that another team posted in a white paper from previous years, or even if you want to re-use a transmission that your team designed two years ago, it sure sounds to me like FIRST is saying "No! we want this years team to design anything that is not in the KOP and is not COTS themselves"

And I take that to mean, even if they have to reinvent what the team has done in previous years.

Originally Posted by <R16>
During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and robot shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the components and mechanisms required to complete their robot.

I can certainly see the reason for doing that. If you have a team that has been around for 5 or 10 years, it would be very easy to reuse great subsystem designs from previous years. But the students on the team this year would not be able to go through the design cycle for those parts of the robot, they would not have to brainstorm and think about the best way to build even simple things like a battery holder or a motor mount

and isnt that what the whole idea of this program is? To present the students with a interesting and difficult design challenge, and have them tackle it, from start to finish?

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

ok, you can design and build a proof of concept mechanism, or even prototypes, but the other rule says you must 'design' all the parts you need after the kickoff meeting.

If you copy a tranmission design from CD that another team posted in a white paper from previous years, or even if you want to re-use a transmission that your team designed two years ago, it sure sounds to me like FIRST is saying "No! we want this years team to design anything that is not in the KOP and is not COTS themselves"

And I take that to mean, even if they have to reinvent what the team has done in previous years.

I read 'design' as used in <R16> to mean 'decide how to build'. Design doesn't have to mean 'invent' or even 'improve'.

As a wise man once said, "steal from the best, then invent the rest!"

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by <R16>

During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and robot shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the components and mechanisms required to complete their robot.

This obviously can't be taken as strictly as you suggest, Ken. Many of the "components and mechanisms" used on a robot are purchased, not designed and fabricated. If we were to go all rule-lawyerish and follow it to the letter, it would keep us from using things like off-the-shelf bolts and chains. There's enough fuzziness in the word "design" to satisfy me that pulling out last year's battery holder plans for this year's robot won't violate the rule.

I think the intent of the rule is clear, especially when coupled with what <R15> says about pre-season prototypes immediately before it. Using existing documentation and raw materials to fabricate a pre-engineered design is not prohibited.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Richard

I read 'design' as used in <R16> to mean 'decide how to build'. Design doesn't have to mean 'invent' or even 'improve'.

I think you are saying the same thing I am, but you dont realize you are saying it.

Ok, we have a battery holder on a robot from two years ago. Back then a couple students were presented with the problem "We gotta attach the battery to this surface, in this orientation, with access to the wires here and here".

If they did a real design cycle on the task, they would figure out the mass of the battery, the acceleration it would experience when the robot hit a solid object going 15 fps, with 2" bumpers on the robot, how much force that will create on the holder

and then look at the specs for sheet metal and alum, and the shear strength of #8 and #10 and 3/8" bolts..... and designed a battery holder that will keep that 10 lb lump of lead where its suppose to be, no matter what.

Ok, now its this year - I dont see anyway I can honestly say "design a battery holder" means "get the drawings from two years ago and hand them to the machinist on the shop floor".

If they dont go through the same design cycle / exercise, then they have no idea why the battery holder is the way it is.

and the rule that we have quoted a few times now says all "designing" for this years robot must be done after this years kickoff meeting. If you can buy something off the shelf, or pull it out of the KOP, then you dont need to design that part of the system

but you would still have to go through a bit of work to analyse the thing you are buying to make sure it will work as intended.

That battery holder you end up copying from two years ago, or from another team, for all you know it may have broken in every single match.

Engineering is a single point position of responsibility - if we are showing students what its like to be an engineer, then they cannot let something onto the robot that they cannot explain, verify, or say with understanding "this will work, this will do what it needs to do".

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Ok, now its this year - I dont see anyway I can honestly say "design a battery holder" means "get the drawings from two years ago and hand them to the machinist on the shop floor".

If they dont go through the same design cycle / exercise, then they have no idea why the battery holder is the way it is.

and the rule that we have quoted a few times now says all "designing" for this years robot must be done after this years kickoff meeting.

This has already been refuted a few posts ago. You seem to be the only person only looking at R16 and not R15, so where is the "we"?. Teams can prototype and design in the fall, according to R15.

If you wish to run your team this way, then that is your choice. However, please don't tell teams that using prior designs is illegal. Teams do not have to re-invent the battery holder each year.

The GDC gives us a new game each January, with new challenges. If the game is so easy that all a veteran team has to do is pull the prints from the previous year, then the GDC didn't make a good game. On the other hand, if we all had to re-format our brains, start from scratch with un-used designs we would see many non-movable boat anchors on the FIRST playing field.

It is simply ridiculous to say that FIRST does not want us to re-use proven (or even foolish) designs, or share designs between teams. Teams and individuals have been highly recognized and awarded for doing such things. Teams have won Chairman's Awards and individuals have won Woodie Flowers Awards for doing exactly these gracious acts.

Students on teams without engineering mentors learn from other teams this way. Making teams re-design from scratch is not only stupid, but against the ideals of the engineering iterative process.

Andy B.

[KenWittlief]

I did not write the rules. I can see that many people are saying "It cant really means what it says"

but is that because we are convinced that is not what FIRST wants, or because we dont want it to say what it says?

Not every team has people hanging out on CD, so we can all wink at each other and say " the rule doesnt really mean what it says, so go ahead a re-use designs and subsystems from last year, as long as you have a machinist make new parts between kickoff and ship date"

so, if FIRST really means "go ahead and design all year long for next year and re-use and copy whatever you want" then they should say that - and say it clearly.

Teams I have been on, prototypes and proof of concept stuff was made of cardboard and plywood and two by fours, or using the edu bot, or whatever we had laying around. If the concept worked then we designed something similar, with metal or plastics, using approved materials and motors and parts. Nothing ever went from prototype to shipped robot with no changes.

[Steve W]

Let me add another element to the question.According to this rule :
<R22> Individual COMPONENTS from robots entered in previous FIRST competitions may be used on 2006 robots IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition.

If the Red Team competes in an off season event, would it be classified as a FIRST event and would the parts be allowed in the 2007 season if the rules remain the same as 2006?

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

YIKES! WHAT?! HOLY COW! YIKES! YIKES! (this changes everything)

No, it does not. Be sure to read <R15> also:

<R15> Prior to the Kick-off: Before the formal start of the robot Build Season, teams are encouraged to think as much as they please about their robots. They may develop prototypes, create proof-of-concept models, and conduct design exercises. Teams may gather all the raw stock materials and COTS items they want. But absolutely no fabrication or assembly of any elements intended for the final robot is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation. Any MECHANISMS assembled prior to the Kick-off presentation may be used for prototyping or educational purposes, but MAY NOT be used on the final ROBOT.

Originally Posted by Steve W

Let me add another element to the question.According to this rule :
<R22> Individual COMPONENTS from robots entered in previous FIRST competitions may be used on 2006 robots IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition.

If the Red Team competes in an off season event, would it be classified as a FIRST event and would the parts be allowed in the 2007 season if the rules remain the same as 2006?

The important part of <R22> is "IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition."

If a team fabricates a custom part for the 2006 Wonderland competition, they can't use it on the 2007 robot.

If a team uses a Globe Motor in the 2006 Wonderland competition, and the same Globe Motor model is a legal part in the 2007 FIRST kit, then that same exact motor can be used on a 2007 FIRST Robot.

Of course, that is if the fabrication rules are similar to what we knew in 2006.

AB

[Matt Krass]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Let me add another element to the question.According to this rule :
<R22> Individual COMPONENTS from robots entered in previous FIRST competitions may be used on 2006 robots IF they satisfy ALL of the rules associated with materials/parts use for the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition.

If the Red Team competes in an off season event, would it be classified as a FIRST event and would the parts be allowed in the 2007 season if the rules remain the same as 2006?

Wouldn't the very nature of an off-season exclude it from "FIRST event"? I mean yes, it's an event, played (mostly) by FIRST rules, with FIRST teams, but does FIRST officially endorse it? I don't think so in the case of most/all of them, someone correct me if I'm wrong. And as such doesn't that mean they are not legal FIRST events?