RACK & ROLL Reaction

[lukevanoort]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

This year there are 24 places to score inner tubes. Last year, the majority of defense played was on teams trying to shoot into a single goal. It will be much harder to block all eight vertical columns at once, and with the huge rack in the center of the field it will prevent teams from barreling across the field to push you out of the way.

This is true for a zone defence, but not necessarily for a man-to-man style one. If you have grippy wheels like 306 and 217 have or high traction, reliable treads like 180 and 753 I'm pretty confident that you could effectively remove two robots from the equation or at least heavily reduce their capability to score. Another effective defensive maneuver might just be shaking the spiders, which is pretty easy. That said, we're probably going to abandon our defensive tradition this year in favor of offence. Or, at least focus on offence and if a little defensive capability finds its way in, hey, thats all the better.

[|20807 61|2|_]

All i can say is that someone is going to get hurt with a mobile 24 armed cage !! Personally i love it but it does seem like just a very large tic-tac-toe board.

[artdutra04]

// Sorry about the double post, but I wanted to keep all my replies to previous posts and my game opinions separate.

I swear, the first thought that popped into my head after I saw them release the playing field at the Manchester, NH Kickoff was "where's the power source for the lights?". Then again, maybe I think too much about technical details...

Then about four seconds later I decided I liked the game. It would be fast-paced, fun to drive and compete in, and very fun to watch, film, and photograph. I liked the inner tubes, the introduction of nice strategy on where to place tubes, the huge structure in the middle of the field. (Actually, I think I was more overjoyed at being able to use arms and elevators again more than anything else!)

Back in September, something went off in my head that told me 2007 was going to be a great year. And so it has become!

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by MissInformation

You are practically accusing team 254 of cheating, and I don't know if you mean to or not but it's not very nice to even imply it. Especially since you are representing your team on CD, whether your know it or not.

NO I am not accusing them of cheating. I am saying that their robot could be used if they re-made it and modified it to the rules. I am talking from the design point of view that if you design a similar robot that it is less effort. I am not implying anything, but rather proving my point that within 10 hours of the animation video that 10+ teams from the past have pulled out their old robots to try this, (them being one of them), and could possibly with some tweaks make a new one for competition this year.

NO CHEATING IMPLIED.

Pavan.

[Graham Donaldson]

Okay... my like-dislike of the game: none, at the present. I'm going to wait and see.The field does look very bare, but I think once a few tubes fall or what have you, that could cause some major obstructions. On that note, a team fully extended, going for and 8-foot-tall goal, that tips WILL be a major obstruction. I'll be excited to see how that plays out. I'm disappointed with the human player role- seems slightly useless to me. I like the new end-of-match bonus. Gives a whole lot of questions and strategizing to the game. I also think that a large degree of adaptability, on the fly changes and strategical freedom will be ESSENTIAL to any team that wishes to suceed. When I say adaptability, I saw this idea in last year's game, and it made sense then and it makes sense now: removable, interchangeable scoring structures. Say a team makes a base drive train that weighs x pounds. Depending on the strategy they have decided upon, with their alliance, based on the opposing alliance, they swap out their mechanism to fit the game. They have something that adds up to a total of four feet and 120 pounds, 5 and 110, 6 and 100. With the variability of the matches, I predict having one strategy that you do every time will not give you a successful robot. I'll use 25 as a guinea pig here. They had a very well-built, successful robot last year, and a strategy they could execute with a high degree of success every match. We tried to stop them, and still couldn't do it sometimes. That won't work. Depending on the strategy, and the fact that once even a ringer has been placed, the only way to negate it is with a spoiler, if one ringer is hung out of place, your strategy could go out the window. And since I'm really tired, I'll begin to wrap up my speech. Now for my reactions to other's posts.

Originally Posted by 1derboy

My feeling toward this game, interesting. It doesn't seem to be a high scoring game, with 90 being the average I think. The strategy will be interesting as well. Can two teams carry a RINGER score while one just lifts and plays D, will the vision system be as integral of a part this year, will Human or floor be the main scoring mode, one last thing you cant own every goal which makes it interesting.

May I ask how you believe (and I'm not trying to be critical here) how a human player will score? I think it'll be pretty hard, even if you can still throw them over [side note]one of our members suggested we find someone really good at throwing frisbees and put them up on stilts. They never said anything about how tall the human players could be...)

Originally Posted by Jane

I'm thinking this game will be a crowd pleaser.
Easy to understand, wonderfully visual. Drama, excitement, collaboration oh my!

I think this will be a great year to invite folks to come see FIRST in action and share in the fun - the teams will be rocking. Go GDC!

I graciously disagree. I think the game may be hard to understand at first, and with the possible mess of inner tubes, never mind not being able to see half of the scoring structure, this game could be not as crowd-intense as last year. C'mon, who doesn't like shooting poof balls that could fly into the crowd???

Originally Posted by Richard

I'm thinking this is going to be a test of my reaction time. And I'm thinking it would also test a driver's reaction time to try the same feat using a robot. I'm thinking that the CMU camera will only be able to tell the robot the time-average location of the swinging Spider Arm Plates.

I'm thinking that Rack scoring will be hard.

Originally Posted by iCurtis

I'm no Car Nack but if 1/10 of the teams at any regional can place a keeper with 75% reliability, I'd eat my scouting notebook. You have a relatively small target which must be hit with a high degree of accuracy, on which you must really completely (or nearly completely) on your camera.

That's one of my questions (I'm not a programmer). Could the CMU cam be used to track the diamondplate circles? Give it an autonomous function to lock on to the nearest circle? And how would that be useful...I honestly haven't worked it out yet. My other idea was a range sensor placed strategically so that when the plate moved in front of it, if the function was activated, the arm would autonomously move out and put the tube on- ???

Originally Posted by DeepWater

...I understand the camera can now (supposedly) track multiple targets (green lights) but I don't think that means it can track the diamond plate circles can it? What I can't figure out is if the camera system can only help you find the relatively stationary green light(s) how is it supposed to be able to track the moving spiders at all and get your ring delivery mechanism within +/- 1.5" of being on target... Since the rule apparently do not allow you to hold the spider steady to allow easier placement of the rings I believe scoring the rings might be more difficult than first glance.

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by Pavan

Trust me, you will see within a week from this post what I am talking about. I will already link you to a picture of a past bot which only needs a few Modifications before it is ready for this game (IF AND ONLY IF after they build a new one).

Pavan.

I know exactly what you mean. We are in the same situation. 2005 robot that needs few modifications before it can compete in this game.

But there are some things that we weren't satisfied with in 2005, so we'd choose not to make the same exact design as then.

Maybe 254's 2004 robot had some features that didn't exactly satisfy what they were looking for.

I don't get why you are complaining so much. It's not going to change the game, and it's not going to change our opinions so much.

If you don't like it, why are you involving yourself in it so much more than you have to?

[Pavan Dave]

Originally Posted by InfernoX14

I know exactly what you mean. We are in the same situation. 2005 robot that needs few modifications before it can compete in this game.

But there are some things that we weren't satisfied with in 2005, so we'd choose not to make the same exact design as then.

Maybe 254's 2004 robot had some features that didn't exactly satisfy what they were looking for.

I don't get why you are complaining so much. It's not going to change the game, and it's not going to change our opinions so much.

If you don't like it, why are you involving yourself in it so much more than you have to?

That is exactly what I am saying.
ALTHOUGH some teams could rebuild a bot from previous years they would rather just improve on the stuff they didn't like while they were bringing their new creation to life. Although this idea is not in the first spirit it is not breaking rules either. It is not said that I can not use a similar robot design in this competition.

Pavan.

[JESTER357]

i think this is going to be the most intense and fun game. FIRST really did an amazing job this year and topped last year. How do they keep it so much fun. lol

[Ericgehrken]

At first I knew this was going to be a complicated game and after a strategy meeting I understand it better and it still is complicated so I now know I'm not insane. I think it will be fast-paced and exciting just like any good sport. This is what Dean wants FRC to display with gracious professionalism. How American is an exciting sport? Nice game, great work Game Design Committee.

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Apparently FIRST threw out that whole philosophy that the game should be easily scored/explained to your grandmother.

As long as your actions on and off the field still make your Grandma proud, we'll keep scoring calculations up to awesome software.
(And yes, it IS awesome this year. So simple to use.)
We talked with the guy at the scoring software table for about 15 minutes or more up in Manchester and learned so much about the game from him. It's always good to have an insiders view on stuff.

Originally Posted by Pavan

(IF AND ONLY IF after they build a new one).
Pavan.

Originally Posted by MissInformation

You are practically accusing team 254 of cheating, and I don't know if you mean to or not but it's not very nice to even imply it. Especially since you are representing your team on CD, whether your know it or not.

Yeah.. that's not very nice.

Originally Posted by |20807 61|2|_

All i can say is that someone is going to get hurt with a mobile 24 armed cage !! Personally i love it but it does seem like just a very large tic-tac-toe board.

It's not that mobile. It may move (very slightly) during competition but it's not on wheels or anything but the spider legs will whip around a lot so there IS a safety concern that's for sure.

Think the middle platform in 2004. heavy as all heck, and it only moved when someone rammed it full speed and it was mere inches... if ever over 2" in any direction on the floor.

Originally Posted by artdutra04

I swear, the first thought that popped into my head after I saw them release the playing field at the Manchester, NH Kickoff was "where's the power source for the lights?". Then again, maybe I think too much about technical details...

I thought that too.. and then first thought a battery was mounted in the diamond plate covered box above everything but then asked "How would you change that out?" "How the heck are you going to climb this rack safely??
And then my focus saw the cable coming down and realized it was hardwired.
(Made me feel much better about not having a target light get dimmer as the day went on. lol)

[Pavan Dave]

Quote:Originally Posted by Pavan
(IF AND ONLY IF after they build a new one).
Pavan.

Quote:Originally Posted by MissInformation
You are practically accusing team 254 of cheating, and I don't know if you mean to or not but it's not very nice to even imply it. Especially since you are representing your team on CD, whether your know it or not.


Yeah.. that's not very nice.


I didn't mean it like that. I will edit it sorry. I meant that if they wanted to use the robot for competition they would have to build another one.

Pavan.

[Lil' Lavery]

On the topic of the autonomous scoring and the CMU Cam:
I don't believe that the CMU cam can track diamond plate (and even if it could, how would it differentiate the circles from the rest of the rack, alliance stations, and even potentially other robots). The lights serve as a reference to where the goal and approximate location of the spider legs are, but for more specific targeting, you will probably have to use additional sensors to identify the exact location of the legs.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

and 2003.

Those were robot-unfriendly ramps in 2003.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

That view on the big screen can certainly help a driver

....if they are actually showing your robot at the time you're trying to score on the opposite side of the field....

[JaneYoung]

Regarding our posts, we might just want to take a minute here and breathe.
Let's take some time to study the game challenge and the manual and then post.

Whether we realize it consciously or not, we have all been on a huge build up for this game reveal and now it is here and oh, a surprise, unexpected, not what I was thinking, not what I wanted - kind of thoughts can enter in, esp. when we are already sleep deprived from this week.

I would also like to suggest that 2nd year team members are definitely not rookies and have been through most of the cycle, however 2nd year team members haven't been through the 2nd game challenge and balancing their thoughts and feelings with that experience. It might be wise to discuss some of these feelings and thoughts with our teams and with individuals via PM but, learning and growing together on CD is fine with me as long as we keep respect in the center of the growth and communication, all of us.

Trusting/learning to trust the GDC is a part of being a participant in FIRST.

Just some thoughts.
Jane