2007 Kit

[Gdeaver]

Comparing last year KOP drive train with this year. 2006 the drive train with the addition of 2 21 tooth sprockets, 2 28 tooth sprockets, a box chain and 4 kludged up wheel adapters gave a team a nice 4 motor 4 wheel drive base. Could be done in one night. With this year's kit we get 2 wheel drive and the opportunity to spend allot more $$$ to get 4 wheel drive out of the kit drive train. What do we do? Buy 2 more 56 MM gear heads and associated sprockets and go with four wheel independent drive or buy the 2 cim gear case add on and use 1 56 mm gear head. I have reservations about putting 2 cims into 1 56mm gear head. Maybe others will have a more analytical comment on the input handling of the banes bot gear heads. Then there is the output shaft loading issue that Banes bots warns about and the additional bearing plate they sell because of it. Then again we could just use the 2005 KOP gear boxes. They're in pristine condition and have proved to be robust.
The Andy Mark KOP wheels have much softer rubber. The Skyway wheels last year wore down allot. I'm afraid the softer compound may be a wear problem. I think we may put disposable rubbers on the wheels. Also I think the Skyway wheel profile was a positive when driving on carpet.
I can see the BB gear heads being a positive for our arm drive.
The encoders available from BB are a definite step forward.
Over all with less then 24 hour I have to say the kit is 2 steps forward and one back. Our team is going to need some additional funds to make this work this year. Last year we got away real cheap.

[Madison]

I just want to verify that, as per the KoP checklist on the FIRST site, we're only supposed to have one Fisher Price motor and gearbox. We received two in our kit.

Did anyone else get two?

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I just want to verify that, as per the KoP checklist on the FIRST site, we're only supposed to have one Fisher Price motor and gearbox. We received two in our kit.

Did anyone else get two?

We got two, I was just about to post the same question.

[Ricky Q.]

We got 2 as well.

[Cody Carey]

We recieved two as well.

[FIRST Rocks]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I just want to verify that, as per the KoP checklist on the FIRST site, we're only supposed to have one Fisher Price motor and gearbox. We received two in our kit.

Did anyone else get two?

I was wondering about this as well. The checklist says 1, but both 494 & 70 got 2 Fisher-Prices. I think the checklist is wrong, considering that we've gotten two in the past and it seems every team got two.

[ChuckDickerson]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Lightheartedly, I would like to remind all of you who have made serious investments in batteries to remember to recycle them

Yes, I have been wondering if FIRST thought at all about the environmental impact of suddenly making thousands of existing perfectly good batteries obsolete overnight. I suppose they are good for practice and use in previous years robots for demos and such but I still think this was possibly the most environmentally UNfriendly move FIRST has ever made. What a waste. Folks if you don't want, need, or have a good use for your old (now obsolete) batteries from previous years PLEASE consider either finding a new useful home for them or at least properly recycle them.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Sean Schuff

I'm not normally one to gripe but I am highly irritated that they aren't allowing us to use batteries from past years.

The pessimist in me thinks that this rule was written simply to drive extra (unnecessary) business to a new FIRST supplier. The optimist in me certainly hopes this is not the case, but so far the batteries seem identical so I can't figure out why there'd be any technical reason to prohibit last year's batteries.

[Andy A.]

The Battery issue seems to be recurring. FIRST rules that because the battery has a new part number, it is different then previous batteries.

Teams argue that there is not significant difference between previous batteries and the new ones, and should be allowed to use older models.

FIRST responds by saying that its okay that only two batteries will be allowed, because you can charge them overnight.

Teams are perplexed, and frustrated that FIRST doesn't 'get it'. The worry isn't with starting the day off with fresh batteries, but finishing it with fresh batteries. It seems like FIRSTs expectations of battery use and use in reality are very different.

Refs and inspectors at regionals do 'get it' and no trouble is encountered.

Why this has to come up, year after year, is beyond me. Perhaps FIRST should just specify that the kit supplied, or equivalent, battery is legal for use. It would solve a whole bunch of headache.

Now that thats out of my system. I have not be able to go over the kit list in detail. Is anything noteable missing? Specificly things like motors and major electronics components.

[Alexa Stott]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

Teams are perplexed, and frustrated that FIRST doesn't 'get it'. The worry isn't with starting the day off with fresh batteries, but finishing it with fresh batteries. It seems like FIRSTs expectations of battery use and use in reality are very different.

Refs and inspectors at regionals do 'get it' and no trouble is encountered.

Why this has to come up, year after year, is beyond me. Perhaps FIRST should just specify that the kit supplied, or equivalent, battery is legal for use. It would solve a whole bunch of headache.

Now that thats out of my system. I have not be able to go over the kit list in detail. Is anything noteable missing? Specificly things like motors and major electronics components.

I would be much happier if they allowed, like you said, batteries that are equivalent to the new ones, at least for a year or two. As I stated earlier, we just invested in a whole bunch of new batteries last year. Now, I know that some teams don't go through an entire battery in one round, but we do, meaning that we need at least 6 batteries to ensure we have a fresh one, especially if it's eliminations (and sometimes that's not even enough!). With the new batteries, we would have to buy probably 6 or 7 new batteries to have enough to get through an entire regional.

I'm hoping that they'll change it to allow equivalent batteries, though I doubt they will.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

The pessimist in me thinks that this rule was written simply to drive extra (unnecessary) business to a new FIRST supplier. The optimist in me certainly hopes this is not the case, but so far the batteries seem identical so I can't figure out why there'd be any technical reason to prohibit last year's batteries.

This whole battery thing has always been to create business for FIRST battery suppliers. These batteries are interchangable when used to start the engines in motorcycles, or whatever their normal use is, and would also be essentially interchangable for our use. Exide got a few years of "guaranteed" business, and now someone else will get at least one year of guaranteed business.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

This whole battery thing has always been to create business for FIRST battery suppliers. ...

I can't comment about every year, but at least once I know that FIRST kit-of-parts batteries were definitely not selected to create business for the battery supplier.

In 1997 (for Toroid Terror) I was the battery "supplier". The batteries that year were used in a 12V cordless Skil-Bosch drill made by another division of the company I work for. My management OK'd buying a few hundred extra units to donate to FIRST. Things were simpler then -- only about 150 kits, if I recall correctly, with two batteries per kit and about 200 spares. We also supplied a similar quantity of the battery chargers, drill motors, gearboxes, and drill housings from the same product.

Just look at this awesome 2007 kit of parts! FIRST has come a long way!

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by Richard

I can't comment about every year, but at least once I know that FIRST kit-of-parts batteries were definitely not selected to create business for the battery supplier.

In 1997 (for Toroid Terror) I was the battery "supplier". The batteries that year were used in a 12V cordless Skil-Bosch drill made by another division of the company I work for. My management OK'd buying a few hundred extra units to donate to FIRST. Things were simpler then -- only about 150 kits, if I recall correctly, with two batteries per kit and about 200 spares. We also supplied a similar quantity of the battery chargers, drill motors, gearboxes, and drill housings from the same product.

Just look at this awesome 2007 kit of parts! FIRST has come a long way!

I remember the cordless drill batteries, and yes, what we know have to work with is much better. The drill batteries, as I remember, had 10 sub-C nicad cells each and probably had a capacity of not much more than one amp-hour. Using two of these batteries, we still had, at best, maybe 20% of the battery capacitiy we have with the current gel batteries. Another area where we are much better off is the speed controls. The Tekin R/C car contollers that we used through 1998, while very good for their intended application, were seriously overstressed when used for drill motors at 12 volts.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

This whole battery thing has always been to create business for FIRST battery suppliers. These batteries are interchangable when used to start the engines in motorcycles, or whatever their normal use is, and would also be essentially interchangable for our use. Exide got a few years of "guaranteed" business, and now someone else will get at least one year of guaranteed business.

Sorry Kit, but you are flat out wrong. The requirement to use the new battery supplied in the Kit Of Parts (and for that matter, any other component from the KOP) has absolutely NOTHING to do with an effort to create business for a specific supplier. It has everything to do with guaranteeing that the field is as fair as possible to all teams.

The fact that the MK-12 batteries and the previously available Exide batteries can both turn over a motorcycle engine is interesting, but totally irrelevant. It takes about 90 seconds of research to determine that the batteries are NOT the same. Their characteristics, charge rates, and - most importantly - discharge rates are different. And those differences have significant implications for robot performance in a competition application such as FIRST. To ensure that the performance of the power system used in the competition is predictable and consistent for all teams, FIRST has to require that every team use the same make and model of battery.

So next time, before anyone accuses FIRST of being in the pocket of the sponsoring corporations, they might spend a minute and a half to actually apply some of that critical analytical ability that we are supposed to be demonstrating as educated engineers, and think objectively about the rationale that might be used for the various decisions that are made regarding the competition, Kit Of Parts, and robot requirements. You might find that it is not really due to some nefarious financial plot on the part of the people that are supporting this program, but that there is actually an understandable, logical reason that is obvious once you think about it.

-dave

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Sorry Kit, but you are flat out wrong. The requirement to use the new battery supplied in the Kit Of Parts (and for that matter, any other component from the KOP) has absolutely NOTHING to do with an effort to create business for a specific supplier. It has everything to do with guaranteeing that the field is as fair as possible to all teams.

The fact that the MK-12 batteries and the previously available Exide batteries can both turn over a motorcycle engine is interesting, but totally irrelevant. It takes about 90 seconds of research to determine that the batteries are NOT the same. Their characteristics, charge rates, and - most importantly - discharge rates are different. And those differences have significant implications for robot performance in a competition application such as FIRST. To ensure that the performance of the power system used in the competition is predictable and consistent for all teams, FIRST has to require that every team use the same make and model of battery.

So next time, before anyone accuses FIRST of being in the pocket of the sponsoring corporations, they might spend a minute and a half to actually apply some of that critical analytical ability that we are supposed to be demonstrating as educated engineers, and think objectively about the rationale that might be used for the various decisions that are made regarding the competition, Kit Of Parts, and robot requirements. You might find that it is not really due to some nefarious financial plot on the part of the people that are supporting this program, but that there is actually an understandable, logical reason that is obvious once you think about it.

-dave

Sorry about my accusations, Dave. I agree that FIRST is very conscientious in its decisions about robot specs and all other aspects of the competition design. I still feel that Exide, MK-12, Yuasa, or any other "name brand" battery of the type we use would perform comparably for our purposes. The most likely exception would be weight. There might be slight variations of internal resistance in the batteries, but that would be the case between different samples of the same brand. Given that we could get two or three "good" matches from a fully charged battery if we wanted to chance it, I think it's safe to assume that any brand of non-defective battery of the style we use would perform well for one match.

Again, I apologize to anyone I may have offended and promise not to do it again.