Innovation First- What gives?

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by BiTurboS4

You do realize FIRST pays them to be at each event, which you can be assured that it isn't cheap on FIRST's end either. More over, a few of the folks representing IFI at events, are volunteer's who have only there (sic) costs covered.

Also, at one point, i'm not sure if it's still true, but the loaner equipment was actually owned by FIRST.

Careful Mr. Fields, you might be letting your bias show through a little there. It would be more factually correct to say that IFI has a contractual obligation to provide support personnel to attend each official FIRST competition event. The cost for that support is mutually agreed upon by both parties involved, and is fair.

That aside, we seem to go through this discussion every year. IFI contributes an enormous amount of time, energy and money into their support of the FIRST program. Beyond the robot control system, they support the field and arena controllers, design and fabrication of the kitbot chassis, design and fabrication of the FIRST CMUcam II, kitbot transmissions, distribution point for the USB Chicklet, distribution point for the FIRST store, and many, many other items. The vast majority of this effort is just based on cost recovery, and much of it is made up of loss leaders.

Yes, they are the only source for several parts that all teams must use to compete. But as Kevin correctly pointed out, the inverse is that they must bear all the cost and risk associated with designing and fabricating a run of parts that are unique to the FRC competition, and cannot be used or sold elsewhere (who else is going to buy a folded metal pan and tilt stand for a custom CMUcam II unit?). If FIRST changes their mind about including a custom-built IFI part in the Kit Of Parts late in the development process, IFI must eat the whole cost (and they have in the past).

FIRST and IFI both receive a significant benefit from their partnership. But all of that benefit is focused on mutual support for the FRC program, and not making a fortune by financially pillaging the teams that are served. FIRST and the teams get a robot control and radio system that is pretty much rock solid, and has had very very few problems over the years. IFI gets to work with a well-established customer base, they get to work with an organization and a program that they obviously enjoy, and if things work out well they get their costs covered. The teams get good service and support from both organizations. Everyone comes out ahead.

-dave

[Bharat Nain]

I wish to point you to the UFH page: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/uf...eedetail&id=53 . Hopefully, you will understand more about IFI from there. And if you seriously think IFI is charging way too much, why don't you go look at other robotics hobby sites? They charge just as much and if some of their prices are low, most of the time there is no support or/and the product is not of utmost quality. Please keep things in the right perspective before you start ranting. I have been privileged enough to work with the IFI guys in the past few years and although there have been bugs in the system, there may have been unresolved issues, the important thing remains and that is they have always kept very friendly relations with all their customers(FIRSTers). If you want to speak, do so from experience, not from ignorance.

[Mike Copioli]

I'm not going to continue to slam people for thier comments. I think enough of that has been done. Except for Ken,...Poultry...your kill'n me..... I will say that I agree with Ken and Dave. IFI gets taken for granted. Without them, FIRST competitions would be nightmare. Who else is going to provide not only products, but services intended for FIRST and only FIRST. I doubt any company, if approached and asked to perform the tasks that IFI performs, would be able to do it for a fraction what IFI charges. Even if they could provide a cost effective solution for the hardware. The support they provide would be, at best, difficult to match.

[Covey41]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Careful Mr. Fields, you might be letting your bias show through a little there. It would be more factually correct to say that IFI has a contractual obligation to provide support personnel to attend each official FIRST competition event. The cost for that support is mutually agreed upon by both parties involved, and is fair.
-dave

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Covey41

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

What exactly are they deciding? And why would any sucessful business ever post a contract on a public forum just to apease a handful of sceptical people. Since you are so concerned about things being hidden, why don't you post a public profile that includes something other than just a user name?

[DCA Fan]

Originally Posted by Covey41

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

Not to slam on people, but seriously, think before you speak. There is no reason for FIRST to post the details of any of it's contracts to the general public, nor should there be any reason for it to occur. We are not being price-gouged, there is no financial scandal, there is frankly nothing that would require the public disclosure of such contracts. I highly recommend you drop this issue, it will get you nowhere.

[Covey41]

Originally Posted by DCA Fan

Not to slam on people, but seriously, think before you speak. There is no reason for FIRST to post the details of any of it's contracts to the general public, nor should there be any reason for it to occur. We are not being price-gouged, there is no financial scandal, there is frankly nothing that would require the public disclosure of such contracts. I highly recommend you drop this issue, it will get you nowhere.

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

[DCA Fan]

Originally Posted by Covey41

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

No, because every year you're supposed to build an entirely new robot. They would assume, thus, that you would be in need of a new set of controls. I'd recommend you look at the market retail prices of all the parts given to you in the kit, and compare it to how much we paid. I'm sure you'll see how much of a value it is for FIRST to have all these partnerships with companies like IFI and AndyMark whose main purpose is to provide FIRST teams with affordable solutions to parts. Not many companies are willing to devote a majority of resources to a program that doesn't directly help them in the short or long term.

25%-50% going to IFI? Think about things before you say them, again. Look at all of the things FIRST has to do just to get the program started every year. It's not cheap.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Covey41

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

I hope you don't mind my asking, but have you asked FIRST to post it somewhere? And before you do, I hope you ask what business is it of yours.

Originally Posted by Covey41

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

Not even close to 50%. Consider: You pay $6K for registration (KOP and 1 regional). Second regional (and any regionals thereafter) is $4K. So, you pay $2K for the KOP. IFI provides just about that much in the control system. Then factor in the motors, software, pneumatics, and kitbot frame. That kit is probably worth about $5K if charged at full price, maybe more. Oh, and the reason we need a new RC and OI every year is that it makes it easier on everybody except IFI. We don't have to have the rookie kits set aside, provision is made for any updates to the controller, and you're covered in case you blow the controller.

And, I personally think the IFI guys are underappreciated. I worked Spare Parts at the LA regional and two to three times a day I had to go out to the field and find the IFI rep so he could talk to a teamabout a problem or to get his approval for a loaner part. I never heard him complain, and he was busy the entire event maonitoring the field. IFI also provides loaner control systems with the rule that if you don't return it, you pay for it. They put in probably more, if not more valuable, work than anyone else in FIRST, at least at the competition level, with the possible exception of the field managers and event planners.

[dez250]

FYI the 2005 FRC KOP had a retail value of over $16,000. For $2k i would not be complaining what's in the Kit.

P.S.~ I would be very wary of what you say, as many suppliers and supporters of FIRST read these boards. We wouldn't want to bite the hand that feeds us now, would we?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by dez250

FYI the 2005 FRC KOP had a retail value of over $16,000. For $2k i would not be complaining what's in the Kit.

All I can say is: Boy, I underestimated when I gave a guesstimated value. And I'm sure not going to complain, primarily because it only fails when someone does something stupid like not taking good care of it.

[MikeDubreuil]

Can we not bash Covey41 for wanting to see the contracts. Much of FIRST's financial workings are kept secret. This is not to say that FIRST does not have our best interests in heart; however, I do know that most would find it shocking what their money goes or does not go toward.

[Cody Carey]

I'm not arguing with anybody here... but doesn't $16,000 seem a little exorbitant of a price estimate for the kit?

Control System..........................$1,146.71
Victor 884.................................$114.95 x 6
Spike Relay................................$34.95 x 6
Old Breaker Panel .......................$84.95
CMUcam+Pan/tilt ........................$293.90
Kitbot Chassis ............................$189.95
CIM motors/Minibike......................$28.00 x 6
FIRST KOP wheels.........................$18.00 x 6
BB transmissions...........................$89.50 x 2
Remaining Parts**............................$2,500
First Regional................................$4,000

When I added those up, I only $9,569 Which is just over half of the quoted price even though the quoted price does not include the first regional. While this is an absolute STEAL for 6,000 dollars, It is nowhere near what I was led to believe in this thread.

The reason I didn't add the Autodesk software, is because this year it is only a 1 year trial, and for the retail price it is a permanent installation.

What the IFI guys do is amazing, and they should be thanked for it. Their prices are due to a little economic system we use called Capitalism and cannot be helped.

**I am not entirely sure about the costs for the pneumatics system/stock materials that come in the kit, but I believe adding $2,500 is a pretty good estimate, If you have a better estimate, however... please share.

*** Maybe belongs elsewhere***

One thing that everyone in FIRST should realize however, is that FIRST and all affiliated companies are our retailers. We pay them for their services, and like any other paying customers should expect a wonderful product, which is given most of the time. When FIRST fails to supply an adequate product, however... we should not make excuses for them. Even though they are a wonderful Orginization that is inspiring thousands of people, they are still our supplier, and we still paid $6,000 for the kit.
Heres a quick comparison: If I ride the buss and it gets me where I'm going for a year without fail... but ONE DAY, it breaks down when I'm on it, and I'm late to work I will still be VERY unhappy. Because I payed for a service that wasn't delivered.

[dlavery]

OK Jess, since you offered...

Originally Posted by Covey41

Dave, since you know so much, how about posting the actual contract between FIRST and IFI, and let everyone on Chief Delphi decide?

If there is nothing to hide, it should not be a problem.

How about letting everyone on Chief Delphi decide that the actual contract between FIRST and IFI is none of their business? We are customers of FIRST. As such we can expect, and deserve, quality service and a quality product. When we don't get either, we can - and should - make our displeasure known in a reasonable and professional manner. However, just because we don't like something that the organization is doing does not mean that we, as customers, automatically get to peruse through the internal business documents of the organization. Asking to do so is inappropriate, just as asking about the salary of a particular FIRST engineering intern would be.

Earlier Cody made an analogy between FIRST and a bus company. As he noted, if the bus provides a good service and gets you where you are going, as a customer you appreciate the service. But if it breaks down one day and you are late to work as a result, you are justified in being disappointed because you have paid for, and expect, a certain minimum level of service. To extend the analogy, in such a case you are free to comment on the (lack of) service, and even write a letter of complaint to the owner of the bus company. But just because you aren't happy with the bus company does not mean that you get to look at the internal contracts between the bus company and their providers. Their internal business papers are their business and not yours. Whether they have "something to hide" or not is irrelevant and a specious argument.

Originally Posted by Covey41

How do you know? As I said before, if there is nothing to hide, why not post it.

How would you feel if you found out that if 25% to 50% of your $6K reg. fee went to paying IFI? Don't you wonder why every year we need new OI & RC?

If a significant chunk of my registration fee went to pay IFI (it doesn't) then - based on the quantity and quality of the service that they provide to FIRST and the community of teams - it would not bother me. At least, it would not bother me nearly as much as knowing that a significant chunk of my registration fee went to pay a certain unqualified vendor for the previous three years disastrous scoring systems. But that aside, the reality is that the largest chunk of the registration fees goes toward paying for FIRST operations and the functions provided by the capable people in Manchester. And for the services that they provide to the teams and the FIRST community, I do not begrudge them that portion of my registration fees (and none of this is secret information - all you have to do is look it up in the annual FIRST financial report).

We get a new OI and RC each year because the teams insisted on it. Back in the day when FIRST owned all the control systems and teams had to return them to FIRST at the conclusion of each competition season, teams complained bitterly about not being able to keep the control systems. There were endless requests to be able to keep the control systems that they needed to be able to demonstrate their robots and use them during the off-season. When the new IFI controllers became available, FIRST sought out a lot of feedback from the teams on this topic. In response to the teams' request, FIRST adjusted the price of the registration fee specifically to account for the teams' purchase of the RC and OI so they could keep the old ones and get new ones every year. So let's just drop the whole concept of this being some FIRST-IFI plot to screw the teams for more money. It isn't, and to imply so is just inane.

-dave

[billbo911]

Dave,
I always appreciate your input and trust that (aside from the cutting humor) you speak the truth from a first hand point of view. So, thanks for speaking up on this. This subject seems to pop up in one form or another every year. Maybe this time it is finally put to bed permanently.

Originally Posted by dlavery

OK Jess, since you offered...
..... it would not bother me nearly as much as knowing that a significant chunk of my registration fee went to pay a certain unqualified vendor for the previous three years disastrous scoring systems. But that aside......-dave

Now as for speaking from a first hand point of view.....Care to elaborate on the above comment?