YMTC: Bluabot is Very Uplifting

[Natchez]

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You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Here's another "Not sure why this one is even a question" YMTC.

With time expiring in the third game of the Magnolia Classic Regional finals, both of Bluabot's alliance 'bots climb onto Bluabot's 2" high platforms. Maaaaaaaaaaaah! The buzzer sounds and all of Bluateam was hanging out about 2" off the floor. Bobby-Jo, the scoring ref, safely lifts the gate to the field, pulls his recently modified architect's scale from his back pocket, grabs his #2 pencil from his NASA pocket protector, and strolls over to Bluateam bots that were huddled together in the Bluateam's end zone. At the end of the match, Bobby-Jo was positive that Bluateam had no bonus points and it had been a long day so he really didn't even feel like bending over to confirm what he already knew. "Wait," Bobby-Jo thinks, "It seems like they are at about 8" now ... my eyes must be playing tricks on me " Bobby-Jo carefully positions his architect's scale to determine Bluateam's bonus score. The first Bluateam robot he measures is at 10" off the floor, the second Bluateam robot he measures is at 11" off the floor but as he readjusts his scale, it moves to above his 12" scale. Then, Bobby-Jo remeasures the first robot and it is now above his 12" scale. Bobby-Jo shakes his head in disbelief as he walks toward the other refs.

Based on the 2007 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[Guy Davidson]

The way I see it, they don't get points. As he measued the bots twice, and for the same bot, got 8" once and above 12" the second time, something is obviously fishy here. The ref should then investigate what exactly happened, and if as it seems, the bot was moving the other two up after time expired, it's cheating.

-Guy

EDIT:
Consider my opinion changed. I thought back to last year's game. If a robot was still climbing up the ramp as the buzzer sounded and ended up on the ramp, it got the points. Similarly, if the robot was on the ramp and slid down, the alliance didn't get the points. Hence, I think that they should get the points based on the position the robot comes to rest at. Or, if it takes too long (in the ref's opinion) to come to rest on its own, by the position the robot is at when the ref makes his final measurements. In this example, since the ref measured bot #1 again, and it was above 12", bot #1 score 30 points. If he also measures bot #2 and finds it also at above 12", they also get 30 points, bringing the total to 60. Otherwise, the total is 45.

[Matt Krass]

Sounds like a passive lift system thats still active after the field, if thats not a safety violation (since everything should be guaranteed to stop after the buzzer) then it should count I think.

[dtengineering]

This is not - entirely - an implausible scenario for while the electronics may be shut off at the end of the match, springs and pneumatics may still be in play... if there is just BARELY enough force to lift the robot and it is being held back by a LITTLE friction or bump in the cylinder... the robot may continue to rise following the end of the match. Likewise it is possible that a team may dampen their lift to prevent launching a lightweight bot halfway across the field, or simply for safety reasons.

Typically FIRST takes measurements "in a stable position". FIRST also typically states that if your position changes at the end of a match -- after losing power -- it is the final position that counts. Typically this is a negative -- you roll down the ramp or drop down from the high bar -- but in this case it could be a positive.

My call... based on the "stable position" and "final position" precidents would be that they get the bonus points.

Jason

[Greg Needel]

I believe that the robots should get the bonus. Basically the way that it has always been in my mind as both a team member and referee is that bonuses are given after robots come to a stop and/or in the situation of a slow moving bot after about 15 seconds. This came into play frequently in 2004 when teams would winch themselves up and start to fall after the match is over. All of those were call with the intent that if it wouldn't touch the ground in 30 seconds then it was up. Alot of the time things are scored when the referees get over and look at the robots. Since there is not time in the day to wait for every slow after clock bot lifter to finish I would assess the bonus based on what I saw when I went over to measure the first time. In this situation I would give 30 points in bonus, based on both robots being above the 4" mark when inspected.



*semi-off topic, I remember a situation in 2004 where a team used a pneumatic lifter to get up on the bar. The mechanism was triggered before the buzzer but there was another bot above that one which was holding it down to the platform. When we went over to inspect the hanging robots it was initially observed that the robot was not off the ground but a referee bumped the robot pinning it to the ground and that pinned bot hung. It was decided that even though the robot hung in the end that the team not get the 50 points because at the time we looked at the bot it was not off the ground, I think the same call applies to this YMTC.

[Andrew Blair]

As has been said, in previous years, the field is given a reasonable amount of time to come to rest- if necessary. Should the robots be moving upwards at the end of the match, even if relativ aely slowly, the points should be given. If the liftoff takes place several seconds after the end of the match, or is initiated only after some sort of contact with an official, then the points should not count.

If the motion is initiated within the control of the match, or immediate end, then it may be considered within the scope of play and legal. Otherwise, the motion could be assumed to have to be initiated by something external to the actual match- whether that be a ref, an air current, or Thor, trying to influence the outcome with a bolt from the heavens...

[Pavan Dave]

Assuming it is just a slow system and that they started lifting BEFORE the buzzer I would give them them 60 points because they let the field rest for a few seconds sometimes if necessary. BUT if they started lifting after the buzzer I give them nothing because they obviously started lifting after the match was over.


Pavan.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Pavan

Assuming it is just a slow system and that they started lifting BEFORE the buzzer I would give them them 60 points because they let the field rest for a few seconds sometimes if necessary. BUT if they started lifting after the buzzer I give them nothing because they obviously started lifting after the match was over.


Pavan.

What rule are you referencing to give them nothing if they start lifting after the match is over?

Wetzel

[Dominicano0519]

ok the motors stopped and so did the electronics. but if everything stopped and the robot kept going that is not really a violation of any rues.

its like last year, a robot had pneumatics that retracted when the match was done, well those pneumatics were holding the robot onto another robot. once they retracted the robot fell down the ramp and recieved no points. this same rule should apply.

the power was off and what happens once the power is off whatever happens, happens

[JamesBrown]

The field should be scored when the field comes to rest, if the robot is still raising it gets the for the height that the bots come to rest at. No different than if the lift was up then fell, in which case the bots get no points.

My Call 60 points

[Richard Wallace]

I voted 60 pts. bonus for Blue, since that is the last thing Ref Bobby-Jo saw before conferring with the other refs. The last (observed) stable robot position should count.

I also think this is worth a Q&A question. I just looked and didn't see one posted, but maybe I didn't look hard enough. Has the question been posted?

[Taylor]

To paraphrase Dave Lavery, last year's game was last year's game, and this year's game is this year's game, and don't confuse the two. The game is over when the final bell sounds. At that time, no B-bots were more than 4" off the ground. There is nothing in this year's rule book that says anything about robots or objects having to come to rest, so we should not imply that.
My ruling: 0 endgame points.

[TheOtherTaylor]

Originally Posted by Greg Needel

I believe that the robots should get the bonus. Basically the way that it has always been in my mind as both a team member and referee is that bonuses are given after robots come to a stop and/or in the situation of a slow moving bot after about 15 seconds. This came into play frequently in 2004 when teams would winch themselves up and start to fall after the match is over. All of those were call with the intent that if it wouldn't touch the ground in 30 seconds then it was up. Alot of the time things are scored when the referees get over and look at the robots. Since there is not time in the day to wait for every slow after clock bot lifter to finish I would assess the bonus based on what I saw when I went over to measure the first time. In this situation I would give 30 points in bonus, based on both robots being above the 4" mark when inspected.



*semi-off topic, I remember a situation in 2004 where a team used a pneumatic lifter to get up on the bar. The mechanism was triggered before the buzzer but there was another bot above that one which was holding it down to the platform. When we went over to inspect the hanging robots it was initially observed that the robot was not off the ground but a referee bumped the robot pinning it to the ground and that pinned bot hung. It was decided that even though the robot hung in the end that the team not get the 50 points because at the time we looked at the bot it was not off the ground, I think the same call applies to this YMTC.

In 2004, if a robot could not lock it's winch mechanism to keep it hanging from the bar at the end of the match it would back-wind down to the ground and no points would be counted. (Resulting in a modification to my team's robot that included a servo driven hunk of metal to shove into the works to stop it from back-winding)

In your example of the robot pinned to the platform, the referee interfering with the robots was the cause of the pinned robot leaving the platform.

In this situation, so long as the referee had no contact with the lifted robots, I think they should get the points because even though the robots had been shut off, they still managed to end in the 12" off the ground position.

Were a robot to fall from a 12" position after the match had ended, the points would not be given to the fallen robot's alliance so the reverse decision is entirely reasonable.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by sumadin

The way I see it, they don't get points. As he measued the bots twice, and for the same bot, got 8" once and above 12" the second time, something is obviously fishy here. The ref shoudl then investigate what exactly happened, and if as it seems, the bot was moving the other two up after time expired, it's cheating.

-Guy

I guess I havn't read the rules well enough, but I don't know what rule has been violated to charge them with cheating.

Wetzel