The Future of Nationals

[Mike S.]

Carolyn, FIRST isn't about winning at all, it’s about showing students what the field of engineering and technology and design is all about. If FIRST wanted they could send gold medals to all the teams, to show that everyone is a winner as long as you learned and had fun. As far as limiting goes, FIRST is never going to limit anything, as a matter of fact limiting is the exact opposite of what first mission statement is. This is why we have to come up with a solution to the size of nationals, where every team that wants to can attend a national competition.

You also get the feeling of winning something in front of everyone who participated in the competition. That's a huge feeling. And having all those people cheering for you is beyond anything else imaginable.

You shouldn't get this feeling from winning; you should get it because you learned something and because FIRST has opened doors to a whole new world for you.

Mike

[ColleenShaver]

I hate to be posting so much on one subject.. but oh well...

I don't think it's necessarily 'numbers' that create the excitement in any competition...

Ask most of the people I know, they would say that they think a regional competition is better then Nationals anyday. I feel completely the same. Nationals is a little much in my opinion. Awe-striking, sure.. but too big to run into or even find easily people you know and spend some quality times playing with and against their team like you get at regionals.

And the atmosphere at regionals.. I'd say is more intense than virtually any match at Nationals unless you are in that pit in front of the stage for the finals.. and that about matches the excitement of every minute at most regionals I've been to.

That's why many teams are content with just going to regionals.. don't get me wrong, I love the trip to Disney.. but for competition purposes... i would take a regional over nationals any day of the week.

It's not the numbers that make the competition, it's the spirit, determination, and focus of the numbers you do have.

The first national I attended only had 74 teams and it was good and exciting and it just felt like a little bigger regional. 300+ is cool, but it just doesn't give me the adrenaline rush of regionals.

[Carolyn Duncan]

First of all, I realize that FIRST is about exploring the capabilities of science and technology. But the fact remains that enjoying wining is part of competing. Anytime you compete you try to win. That's not to say that's the only thing you do. Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings but that didn't stop me from going and having fun. If winning isn't a big thing in FIRST then why are there standings? It's because there is a competition.
Colleen, what if you're a west coast team and you have friends on east coast teams? If there are fewer people at nationals there is a better chance that the people you know won't be there anyway. I don't know many teams that would go across the country for a regional competition. Don't get me wrong, I love regionals too, but the magnitude is what makes nationals different from regionals. It wouldn't be the same without all of the people there. It would be like skipping to the final four of the NCAA tournament and skipping all the games at the beginning of the tourney.

[Carolyn Duncan]

First of all, I realize that FIRST is about exploring the capabilities of science and technology. But the fact remains that enjoying wining is part of competing. Anytime you compete you try to win. That's not to say that's the only thing you do. Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings but that didn't stop me from going and having fun. If winning isn't a big thing in FIRST then why are there standings? It's because there is a competition.
Colleen, what if you're a west coast team and you have friends on east coast teams? If there are fewer people at nationals there is a better chance that the people you know won't be there anyway. I don't know many teams that would go across the country for a regional competition. Don't get me wrong, I love regionals too, but the magnitude is what makes nationals different from regionals. It wouldn't be the same without all of the people there. It would be like skipping to the final four of the NCAA tournament and skipping all the games at the beginning of the tourney. It takes away for the build up of finals because there are fewer matches to go through before the final match.

[Mike S.]

Last year I went to nationals knowing that there was no way my team would do very well at all in terms of standings

You went with the wrong frame of mind. Like I said, and I am sure colleen would back me up, is the fact FIRST could send out medals to every team, showing them they are all winners.

FIRST is not a competition about winning, its about showing people what amazing things students come up, when they are given certain standards to follow, i.e. the kit parts, dimensions, etc.
And it’s about showing students, science and technology, and how exciting things can be, and to show an individual what their minds can come up with.

And a question for thought, Would you like to know your friends were at a competition on the opposite coast or couldn't compete at all because Nats had to become limited because of the number of teams? I hope you would go with, an answer of them competing on the opposite coast.

This is my opinion.
Mike

[Mike Soukup]

Originally posted by colleen-t190
As for everyone else losing interest.. it's basically being said that teams lose interest in FIRST after Nats.. which is totally untrue.. look how much talk went on about all the comps.. even the A&E special that aired. Imagine if the National Finals held on the lawn of the Whitehouse were being broadcast on TV.. you can't tell me these forums wouldn't be hopping w/ comments from all you close-to-1000 posters!

Then why don't people show up and watch the finals when they're already at the competition? A lot of people here say that FIRST team members would keep their interest if 2 alliances (or maybe more if there were a small elimination bracket) faced off in DC or NH. I can't help but think back to 2001 nationals. Where was the big crowd for the finals? It didn't exist, period.

I don't remember anyone sitting in the stands, and only a few people were in the floor seats. A lot of people were in the pit in front of the stage, but most of those people were on the teams competing. I'd say 1000-2000 max were watching the finals (a pitiful 5-10% of the people). If people can't keep their interest through lunch, why would they keep their interst for a few weeks? I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't see that happening.

So what's the solution? I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this. I always return to my experiences in 96 as a student. Back then nationals was at a small outside ampitheater and there were only ~80 teams. It seemed more like a current regional. People were excited and people actually watched the matches, including finals. Even though 111 got second this year, and we were rookies in 96 and lucky that we could pick up and score balls, I had more fun in 96.

Unless FIRST comes up with a way to return the excitement and interest in nationals, I think we need to return to a smaller national competition based somehow on qualification.

Many people made points that limiting who goes to nationals "isn't what FIRST is about." Who from FIRST said this or where was it written by FIRST? Are people mistakingly taking their own opinions on the direction and ideals of FIRST and saying that's what FIRST stands for? (I may do the same in the next paragraph, but I'm trying my best not to)

Straight off the FIRST web site: "FIRST is here to inspire and recognize excellence in science & technology." The inspiration for students comes mainly from working closely with the engineers for the 6 week build period. Students learn the most by actually coming up with the strategy & design, and by building the robot. As far as inspiration, the competitions are icing on the cake. It's a good time to experience engineering under extreme pressure. Most of the design changes and fixes come during the first regionals. So when it comes to inspiration, which is the main goal of FIRST, nationals don't offer much more.

So what's the point of nationals? Simply put, it's to have fun, to see everyone else's bots, and to try to win the competition. I said earlier that having fun at nationals (same with regionals) is extremely important. Many students and adults wouldn't come back if the competitions were as exciting as a chess match. But the fun and excitement is available at all the regionals, and personally, I think they're much more fun than nationals.

I've heard from my sources that FIRST will begin stressing regionals more. A couple different people told me that soon (if not this year) FIRST will limit attendance at nationals to teams that compete at a regional. I don't know if these changes are because of space at Disney or if FIRST is driving the changes. (this next part isn't from any sources, but is my opinion) I can see FIRST easily making the switch from "teams that attend a regional" to "teams that meet this performance threshold" get to go to nationals. The threshold could be based on a combination of: final standing at a regional (all members of top 2 alliances), qualification standings (top 8 teams), top 50 overall qualification averages, and previous year's performance (top 4 in the nation).

So I think the solution is to emphasize regionals and use them as a way to qualify for nationals. As a result, nationals would get smaller, and I believe more exciting. FIRST needs to bring the excitement of a regional (and ~96 nationals) to current Nats.

This would also increase the level of competition; try to imagine all of the reginal winners & finalists vying for a top 8 seed during qualifying rounds, and imagine getting to pick any alliance partner without divisional restrictions. From a pure spectator standpoint (which would be good for the coveted TV exposure) this is a great format. It's like having playoffs. Just like I'd rather watch playoff football instead of regular season, I'd rather watch the best teams battle it out in a smaller competition format.

I'm sure other people have differing opinions, I'd love to hear them and continue the good discussion that we've already had in the thread.

Mike

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Jeff Waegelin


$350? I would have to say it's more than that. I mean, a one-day ticket to Disney costs at least $40. You throw in multi-day passes, hotels on-site (for many of the teams), souvenirs, and food for a bunch of teenagers, and you get a lot more than 350 bucks a head.

The packages run from about $350 per person up to about $500 per person. I didn't come up with the $6000000 number, I was just trying to explain how it was derived.

Matt

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by Mike S.
You went with the wrong frame of mind. Like I said, and I am sure colleen would back me up, is the fact FIRST could send out medals to every team, showing them they are all winners.

Isn't that what the participation medals are?

[Carolyn Duncan]

While I appreciate you reading and quoting my posts, Mike S., I'd rather hope you'd read and quote complete thoughts.

but that didn't stop me from going and having fun.

This is the rest of the line you quoted. As I previously stated, I realize that winning isn't the main driving force behind participating in FIRST, but it is part of competing. If you are lucky enough to be on a winning alliance/team you are extatic but that doesn't mean that you learned more than any other team.

And a question for thought, Would you like to know your friends were at a competition on the opposite coast or couldn't compete at all because Nats had to become limited because of the number of teams? I hope you would go with, an answer of them competing on the opposite coast.

As far as teams competing on the opposite coast. Yeah, I realize that there will be regionals there that they can compete in but the point I was trying to make was that a split national would be less fun than not splitting because you wouldn't get to see all the people. Part of nationals is getting to see the people you don't see at regionals. The magnitude of nationals is part of what makes being there so much fun. What fun would it be to share ideas with other people on this forum an dnot get the chance to have a web hug and met everyone. Maybe the problem with my prvious posts is that my thoughts are not well conveyed through type.
And Mike Soukup, some of the reasons that so many people didn't go to finals last year, this is what many people told me, were because they were trying to get their pits packed up, they were disinterested in the format of the game, and because it was hard to see the field from many parts of the amphitheater. I know that there were plenty of seats for finals, I was in the floor section, but many people didn't even go check out the seat status for one or more of the afore mentioned reasons.

[P.J. Baker]

Here are my thoughts:

1: The National tournament should be at Disney for as long as possible

2: Teams should have to qualify for the national tournament.

3: Teams should be able to qualify through a strong showing in any of the FRC’s main components (Regionals, Chairman’s Award, Animation, etc.)

4: There should be a lot of teams at the National Competition (250+)


Issues:

1: How to resolve the qualifying vs. planning issue?

a) Long break (2 months min.) between end of regionals and Nationals

b) Qualifying for 200N Nationals based on 200(N-1) performance (with a certain # of wildcards for top regional performers, Chairman’s Award finalists, Animation finalists, etc)

This is the only way I could think to present my thoughts without writing a book. I know that there are problems (and I can even think of solutions for a couple), but I just want to put this out there and see what people think.

P.J.

[Leon Machado IV]

The problem is that we're supposed to be around 300 or less teams traveling to the nationals. Disney wants to keep us within these confins for the space reason.

[EddieMcD]

a) Long break (2 months min.) between end of regionals and Nationals

Disney is only slightly busy in April. Try saying that in June. plus, a lot of schools get out in June, and there are Finals, etc. And the heat would be terrible.

[P.J. Baker]

Originally posted by EddieMcD


Disney is only slightly busy in April. Try saying that in June. plus, a lot of schools get out in June, and there are Finals, etc. And the heat would be terrible.

I was thinking more along the lines of moving the regional portion of the schedule to the Fall and having nationals in Jan/Feb or taking a really long break (filled in with Summer comps etc.) and having nationals in late September/early October (I realize that this would cause problems for seniors, but it is one way to do it).

In the end, I think that I prefer qualifying based on the previous year's performance with a certain percent of Wild Cards for teams that did not qualify but performed well in a regional or had a superior Chairman's Award submission.

[EddieMcD]

Nationals in Jan./Feb. would kill finals. Nationals in Sept. would not leave any time for the kick-off or building if the regionals are in the fall.

[Madison]

Perhaps I am being cynincal . . .

What's really the issue behind all of this? It's not about accomodating the growing number of teams. That can be done easily. It's not about outgrowing the physical space available at Epcot, or any Disney owned property. Epcot's huge, and it has an equally large parking lot. It's not about losing interest in a competition because there are too many competitors. . that's a result of the game, not the organization of the National Competition.

Colleen has said it again and again (perhaps in less abrasive terms). . .FIRST is a burden on Disney. It's that simple.

We occupy hotel rooms at discounted rates that could otherwise be filled with tourists. . . now, not all of them could be filled, but the hotels on WDW property tend to average about an 80% occupany rate. We require that they employ dozens, if not hundreds, of crowd control cast members that wouldn't otherwise be needed. That's extra payroll they wouldn't have without FIRST. We require that they set up those huge tents and that ampitheater and we require that they run all of that extra transportation (to hotels that are not even on Disney property, no less!)

The simple fact is that we don't make any money for Disney, and we don't do anything for Disney's PR at all. Disney is a huge corporation. . .massive beyond imagination. The FIRST National Championship means nothing to them. Nada.

Nationals will continue to grow uninhibitedly only if Disney and FIRST are willing to shell out the cash it takes to let it. That's the only condition here. It's not about designing a better stage or finding a new site. It's just about money.

What can we do about it? Well, the most obvious thing I can think is to tell FIRST that we'd be willing to pay more to go to Nats. That's the easiest solution, though I don't know what that'll do to teams whom already have tight budgets. But, if we pay more, we'll get more.