Is Defense key to this game?

[Swampdude]

I heard Adam on First cast knocking our concept of a big ramp and low scorer (expecting more from us - BTW I take no offense), Which I can understand. He expected us to bring back our 05 bot with the arm like 1345 has and the Exploding Minotaurs. Don't think that this wasn't our first initial design pattern. In fact plans were moving swiftly for the Exploding Minotaur design. But we took our 05 chassis and hung a ringer on it and then tried to score while playing average defense against it, and it became clear that defense is easy to play in this game. 1 bot on defense thats just halfway decent can shut down half the rack, of coarse the opponents side. Now all the great high scoring arm designs are held to maybe 2 scores until the end of the match. Yes they can keep capping while others are climbing but 60 points cannot be over come by 5 ringers "in a row". These rows are going to be hard to come by if both teams are "atempting to score". I think scoring is going to be more about having to score where you are forced to and not realy where you want to. We are planning to play a lot of defense.
For example, you're allowed to pin somone against the rack for as long as you want if they are trying to score. Thats a big rule! Those arms can get tangled up in those chains ya know... if someone shoves you from behind while your trying to center a ringer above a stinger your arm is going into the chains, will it catch? If you dont let go of that ringer you can be held there till the end of the match. If you let go you just wasted a lot of time picking up a ringer and going to score it. I'll bet that if you wind up with a great capper on your alliance, they will require somone on the alliance to play defense in order to "reserve" the spider legs they need to get better rows. That defender is critical in usefull scoring that can over come the ramp points. BTW from our estimates the best possible scoring from a single team/bot will not be more than 6 hung during a live match (this will be rare and undefended).
Granted that defense won't happen all the time and these great scorers will score. But when they do get shut down "all these ramps" are going to start looking pretty good. As long as they are truley big and wide and stable enough for frantic teens to navigate. Or the lifts, which kind of scare me, but are a good idea.

What do you think?

[ChrisMcK2186]

I love the idea of a defensive bot. With the 3 omniwheel design you can scoot around the rack with the greatest of ease.

Chris

[Lil' Lavery]

While I do agree a defensive bot may be useful in particular matches, especially when it can also offer a chance at bonus points, I don't think this game is highly defensive (or nearly as defensive as last year). Because you can approach this scoring object from 360* as opposed to about 120* (like last year), it makes it much harder to run a solid "zone" defense. Especially considering the shape of the rack creates a great place for other teams to "block" for eachother (preventing the defensive bot from getting to the scoring bot).

Also, I think you misunderstood the pinning rule. I think it says the robot that is SCORING is allowed to pin the defender, not that the scoring robot is allowed to be pinned.

<G39> Pinning - While on the carpeted field surface, a ROBOT cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with a field element or border) for more than 10 seconds. If a ROBOT has been pinned for 10 seconds, the TEAM with the pinning ROBOT will be told by a referee to release the pinned ROBOT and back away approximately 3 feet for a minimum of 3 seconds. Once the pinning ROBOT has backed off by at least 3 feet for 3 seconds, it may again attempt to pin its opponent, and if successful, the 10 second count will start over. If a referee determines that this rule has been violated, a 10-point penalty will be assessed for each violation. Note that a ROBOT attempting to HANG a GAME PIECE on the RACK will be immune from a "pinning" violation as long as it is clear that the ROBOT is continuing to attempt to HANG the GAME PIECE.

I think that the best defense this year will be a good offense, similar to 2005. Being able to quickly score on several positions on the rack will immediately and greatly reduce the opposing alliance's highest possible score, while enlarging yours. A coordinated offensive should be able to overcome and overwhelm the other alliance, even if being defended.

[Jessica Boucher]

I think it's way too early to proclaim what is a good design and a bad design for the game, seeing as though the only matches played were the Kickoff game, some human-robot matches, and MiniFRC.

We'll know this weekend, though!

[65_Xero_Huskie]

I agree that a Defensive bot will play a key factor this year, but it will not win the game for the team. This year the best possible strategy would be 2 offensive bots and a Defensive bot (much like other years). And the Defensive bot will probably need to have a secret weapon or an edge compared to the other defensive bot, a ramp or something else, just to be picked by the good teams. I personally think that you should go sor a scorer if you can build it and make it work, and a defensive bot if you have no other alternative.

[Jack Jones]

I think the major strategy that will evolve will come down “tube superiority”. That is, once an alliance gets a little as one tube ahead of the other, they will shut the other alliance down. Even the best scorers will find it next to impossible to score onto moving targets with determined defenders and panicking alliance partners always in the way.

A penalty free game, especially deep into eliminations, will boil down to the last 15 seconds when both alliances are capable of parking two robots. The first to have gained tube superiority will win 62-60. However, given the multitude of possible infractions, there won’t be many penalty free games. So, neither defense nor offense is the key to this game

[Billfred]

The way I see it is this:

Good defense will shut down most weaker offensive strategies.
Great offensive strategies will shut down good defense.

The question then becomes who will have the great offensive strategies. Ask me around May 1.

[Brandon Holley]

When were at nationals I think we'll see the game a lot differently. When both alliances are able to get 2 robots off the ground 12" fairly efficiently, tubes are what is going to win the match.

[Kim Masi]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

When were at nationals I think we'll see the game a lot differently. When both alliances are able to get 2 robots off the ground 12" fairly efficiently, tubes are what is going to win the match.

I agree. I was talking about this with a mentor yesterday. However, the discussion at hand is defense. To quote Forrest Gump "Defense is as defense does sir"

Not that that quote helps in my point, but defense is a strong aspect of the FIRST competition, and the FIRST makes a point in saying that their games are highly interactive.

And as Jess said, it's too early to tell, but we'll see soon

[Dan Richardson]

While I believe defense and offense are both important each will have its place. Especially with the ramps this year. Most ramp style bots I assume will be playing defense until the final stages of a match where they will unfold and everyone will scramble for the 60 points bonus.

But in finals when the alliances are formed, what good is it to have more than 1 ramp other than maybe redundancy? The Exploding Minotaur construction is planning to have ramps, ( right now its coming down to ramps or some more effective sensory arrays ) but we also decided to go 5' 110 lbs. The reason was b/c last year 1902 was 102 lbs and was still able to play extremely effective defense. If you have a solid drive train you can play defense whoever or where ever you are. So yes strategic defense will be important, and so will be having those ramps.

It was just in our evaluation of the polls taken on delphi that when ~ 70% of the pollers said they were going to have ramps that we would concentrate on a good arm. I think at most regionals atleast 8 ramp bots will exist, and in picking for finals thats really all you need ( if thats all you do ).

I personally am excited with the way 179's bot performs from the video I've seen and you have come up in our discussions many times of strategy/scenarios. Its is a very effective way to make sure you are very highly seeded in qualifying. However if you were doing the picking, I believe it would be silly to pick another good ramp? Do you Disagree?

[Swampdude]

Originally Posted by Stud Man Dan

I personally am excited with the way 179's bot performs from the video I've seen and you have come up in our discussions many times of strategy/scenarios. Its is a very effective way to make sure you are very highly seeded in qualifying. However if you were doing the picking, I believe it would be silly to pick another good ramp? Do you Disagree?

2 ramps in a final alliance makes no sense. Personally if I were picking from our teams perspective, we'd want 2 cappers that could climb aboard, and 1 of those I'd prefer could also switch to Defense depending on the lead we take. However we hope to be one of the top scorers also, even though it is on 1 row (1 is all you need )

[Cody Carey]

The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s). Our robot will score on the bottom rung, get the ramp points in the end, and play a mean defense when that is needed. I have a feeling that bots who follow our strategy will be highly successful in this years game.


I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.


Defense will be key in this years game... just like in any game before it.


P.S. We (arguably) won the Philly regional last year with defense.

[David]

defense plays a large role, but in actual competition an efficient offense will win over a strong defense. In fact two years ago, 2005, the nation champions actually avoided other bots.

[waialua359]

this year's game is more like 2005 than 2006. teams should have a defensive robot.
We learned from experience in the finals at the vegas regional against the gila monsters (championship finalist) and the high rollers 987 who had a third defensive robot that messed us up big time when trying to score tetras. We had 3 B++/A-- robots while they had 2 A robots and one F robot in terms of scoring (not their focus). They still beat us out.
On our way to the finals, we simply just outscored other teams, until an annoying bot (hehe.....) kept messing with us trying to score.

Because the camera will be less efffective compared to 2006 in helping teams score (unlike locking in and scoring more than one 7" nerf balls), defense can wreak havoc more effectively this year.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

The notion that a scorer can score over a defensive bot of any kind is ridiculous. If that bot can move, It can keep you from scoring. The smallest height possible, 4', covers one spider leg, and makes it nigh impossible to score on another. That is with the defensive bot sitting still in front of the spider leg(s).

That notion is not ridiculous by any means on the imagination. While I agree that a vast majority of bots will not be able to do it effecitvely, several of the upper tier of teams will probably have that capability. And there is no guarantee that the defensive bot (no matter how powerful) will have the ability to move the offensive one, or will even be oriented correctly to do so (as he may be, as swampdude has decribed, oriented in order to strafe in front of the goal). There is also no guarantee that the defensive bot will be 4' tall (and if it is, in many situations, it could just be scored over for the upper two levels).

Originally Posted by Cody Carey

I know for a fact that if you give me a drivable robot base that is 12" off the ground, and set me in front of one of the best scorers, I will be able to stop them from scoring. Period. There are little things that you can do, like catch their bot in the sweet-spot on their corner... and when you do, they can't score.

While some aspects of this statement are typically true (namely rotational defense by attacking a bots corner), they are not always. Particularly shutting down a powerhouse offensive team with a drivable base. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to outrun a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier at each regional will be able to push around a kitbot, easy. Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have features to try and prevent rotational motion (and many teams have for years). Many of the upper tier in FIRST will have turrets to rapidly adjust for rotational motion that may occur (I can't wait to see what 27 comes up with this year ). If the opposing alliance can commit a large enough defensive effort to any of these upper tier bots, good luck for them scoring enough to win.


As was alluded in this thread earlier, if you're playing defense (at least the type discussed in this thread), it means you're not scoring. By the pure definition of defense (not the type mentioned in this thread), the offensive bot is also playing defense then (by forcing the other alliance to commit a bot(s) to defense, you're reducing their total possible score). This kind of "counter-offense" is evident through statistics from previous years.
For example, 1261 was by no dream of the imagination a defensive team. They were a pure offensive team, with a fast swerve and long-range shooter. Yet, pre-championship, they were ranked (statistically) as the 51st best defensive team, only allowing 20.33 points/match. By contrast, team 306 (sorry to pick on you Cody), a self-admitted defensive team (and quite a good one at that) was ranked 869th, allowing 39.39 points/match.
Some other primarily offensive teams of note, 1114 was ranked 195th, allowing 26.08 points/match, 254 was 136 @ 24.5 points/match, 968 was 67th at 21.13 points/match, and 384 was 86th with 22.4 points/match. Some other of the top notch defensive teams were 710 ranked 861st allowing 39 pts/match, 522 was ranked 750th with 35.81 pts/match, 1816 was ranked 883rd allowing 39.67 pts/match, and 1902 was ranked 629th allowing 33.54 pts/match. What does this mean? Even during a game that had a huge emphasis on actual contact defense, the best defense is often a strong offense.
Now this will be especially true this year, as every spider leg scored reduces your opponents top potential score for that row and that column by a factor of 2. Additionally, spoilers may or may not play a large roll (their importance will probably grow later in the season, and later in each tournament), and are placed by teams that have the capability to place ringers (and more legs you can score on, more flexibility those teams have in placing them).

As for who is ultimately right in this debate, only time will tell. Without a doubt, scores will be low during the first couple weeks (which may or may not be due to defense). Without a doubt, defensive bots will find large roles in all the East Coast regionals. Without a doubt, at IRI and Championship there will be a shift towards a more offensive alliance (which does not mean higher scores). Without a doubt, a smart "defensive" team (such as the robots displayed by 179, 306, and a few others so far) will have a very prominant OFFENSIVE role when all is said and done (and not just through bonus points).