FP 9003 vs 9012 (was Attention Robot Inspectors:)

[Jack Jones]

Attention Robot Inspectors:

Apparently the FP service centers didn’t get that memo mentioned in Update #8”

Please note that the motor part number is 00968-9012, but the motor/gearbox assembly is 00968-2911. FisherPrice Service Centers have been notified that if a person identifies themselves as a FIRST participant, they can buy the motor and pinion and/ or gearbox they supplied for this years Competition. This will take effect on 2/2/07.

Nor do they fully understand that all 19-tooth FP motor/gearboxes are NOT created equal, not in the eyes of FIRST. They had me waste a 40-mile trip to one store by saying they had five, which turned out to be a mix of Mabuchi and 9003s. Another store could not locate any by part number, but realized they had four when I described how to identify the 9012, which brings me to the point of this post.

According to the guys at the service centers, some teams didn’t care if they had the right motor. Some even figured they could “get away with it” by swapping the sleeve with part number on it.

FYI: The 9012 has four cooling slots, which are slightly smaller than the two slots on all the others (Mabuchi – 9003) I’ve seen.

[Tristan Lall]

Some more information, for those who are interested:

The Mabuchi F-P motors (all illegal for 2007) are identifiable by the back end, because they lack the four ventilation holes on back end of the Johnsons (viz. Johnsons from the inside); the Mabuchi F-Ps look pretty much like the little Mabuchi motors, from the back, with distinctive curved slits. (Actually, according to Mabuchi's site, there's a new design for the RS-550 motor; compare the RS-545 to the new RS-550. The old-style RS-550s issued to FIRST teams should look like the RS-545 when viewed from the back.) Other differences between Mabuchis and Johnsons include the stick-on model label on a Mabuchi, vs. the painted numbers on a Johnson, or the "M" vs. "JE" logos. Inspectors can easily check for this, and catch obvious violations.

The Johnson 9012 looks the same as the 9003, and the same as the higher-powered Johnson F-Ps from 2002 and 2004. That unfortunately makes them indistinguishable at a glance, apart from the model number. (The pinion was different on the 2002 motor, but since the pinions are replaceable, it doesn't matter.) The 9003 lacks the internal thermal protection of the 9012, but is otherwise largely equivalent (though still illegal). The other motors are rated upwards of 200 W (mechanical power), and represent a competitive advantage over the approximately 170 W of the 9012, if substituted in violation of the rules.

[Rob]

So in the chaos that was the build season, none of us ever checked if we got the correct version of the FP in our KOP. Shame on us for assuming that we could use the parts provided in the KOP.

When we check these on Thursday of the Boston regional we will find out for sure. If we happen to have the wrong ones will FIRST have the correct ones on hand for us to use?

Also, does anyone know if the 9012 motor and the 9003 motor have the same size pinion? We had to modify the FP gearboxes and it would be much better for us if the motors could be switched into the same gearboxes (provided that we even have to switch).

Thanks,

RAZ

[Rob]

Ok, so after going through a bunch of pictures from our build season, it is apparent that we were supplied with illegal FP motors in our kit. The link below shows what it looks like.

http://www.tomschindler.net/our_fp.jpg

It is very important that we find out if the pinion gear is the same on the 9012 and 9003 motors. If it is not, I need to find out how many teeth each has so I can be sure to have the appropriate parts to put the 9003 pinion on the 9012 motor. If anyone can help with this we will be eternally grateful.

Please share any info that you have.

Thanks,

RAZ

[Ben Piecuch]

Rob,

We were given the 9003's as well, but did not use the F-P motors on our robot at all. Therefore, we never asked for replacements from FIRST. Our 9003 motors are still untouched at the shop. I'll take a look next week and confirm what our pinion size is. If someone else has an unused 9012 to compare, we'll have our answer.

For information sake, I believe that most of the 9003's were given to teams that attended the Manchester, NH kickoff. (So, mostly New England teams had this problem...) The Manchester KOP's were packed last, as they didn't need to be sent in advance. These 9003's were leftovers from previous years, so they were probably inadvertantly mixed in at the time of KOP packaging.

Off to catch up on some sleep...

BEN

[kaszeta]

Originally Posted by Ben Piecuch

Rob,

We were given the 9003's as well, but did not use the F-P motors on our robot at all.

I checked Team 95's, and ours are the 9003s. And we got them at Manchester.

We're not using them on the bot, however. (Unusual, we usually use them).

[Rob]

Hi Guys,

After doing a bit of research on the 2 motors (9012 and 9003) and talking to FIRST, we are making much ado about nothing. The two motors are virtually identical and should be interchangeable. Recall that both were in the 2006 KOP with some teams getting one style and other teams getting other styles.

Looking at the 2006 tips and good practices document, the motors have almost the exact same performance.

Link to the document showing the motors are almost identical is below:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/oth...ices_Rev_D.pdf

I would strongly suggest that FIRST just allow both 9012 and 9003 motors and let this non-problem go away.

Either way, we had some 9012 motors shipped to us so we will be safe either way.

Best of luck to everyone,

RAZ

[eugenebrooks]

By definition, motors supplied by FIRST in the kit should be legal.

The notion that the 9012 and the 9003 are equivalent, however,
is a stretch. The 9012 has the internal current protection
and the 9003 does not. This difference is huge when a motor
is operated close to full power to lift a robot. We had to specifically
modify our robot lift to change the gearing to keep the internal current
limiter in the motor from popping midway through the lift, even
though the circuit breaker for the victor controlling the motor was
the 20 amp one.

The 9012 motor is easly obtained, although you might have to
sort through the parts that Fisher Price wants to sell you. If
the 9003 is declared legal we will happily swap the 9012 out
to ditch the internal current limiter.

Eugene

Originally Posted by Rob

Hi Guys,

After doing a bit of research on the 2 motors (9012 and 9003) and talking to FIRST, we are making much ado about nothing. The two motors are virtually identical and should be interchangeable. Recall that both were in the 2006 KOP with some teams getting one style and other teams getting other styles.

Looking at the 2006 tips and good practices document, the motors have almost the exact same performance.

Link to the document showing the motors are almost identical is below:
http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/oth...ices_Rev_D.pdf

I would strongly suggest that FIRST just allow both 9012 and 9003 motors and let this non-problem go away.

Either way, we had some 9012 motors shipped to us so we will be safe either way.

Best of luck to everyone,

RAZ

[Rob]

Excellent points Eugene, I hadn't thought about the current limiting feature (probably because our application operates well below stall torque and doesn't draw much current).

There are noticeable differences depending on your application, so maybe FIRST is justified in sticking with the 9012 motor. We are prepared to swap on Thursday of the Boston event.

Best of luck to everyone!

RAZ

Originally Posted by eugenebrooks

By definition, motors supplied by FIRST in the kit should be legal.

The notion that the 9012 and the 9003 are equivalent, however,
is a stretch. The 9012 has the internal current protection
and the 9003 does not. This difference is huge when a motor
is operated close to full power to lift a robot. We had to specifically
modify our robot lift to change the gearing to keep the internal current
limiter in the motor from popping midway through the lift, even
though the circuit breaker for the victor controlling the motor was
the 20 amp one.

The 9012 motor is easly obtained, although you might have to
sort through the parts that Fisher Price wants to sell you. If
the 9003 is declared legal we will happily swap the 9012 out
to ditch the internal current limiter.

Eugene

[Al Skierkiewicz]

FYI,
The current limit in this motor trips at well below stall current. In test we found the motor trips at about 24 amps. Since it is a thermal trip, each successive trip causes a much longer recovery.

[Brandon Holley]

We also got 9003s at the manchester kickoff. It took something to the tune of 5 weeks to get a response out of FIRST, but they did finally respond saying they were sending us the correct motors, which means we have to take apart the whole assembly at Boston to replace our motors. Not a fun situation.

[Lithium]

Well, hopefully we were the only team that got bit by this mistake. We used 9003s in our prototype design, not thinking there was a difference. The design worked great, and we were lifting 160 pound bots on our ramps with no problems in our lab. Thursday morning at the Phoenix Regional, a student reminded us we had to use the 9012s so we made a quick swap out on the bot, thinking there would be no big deal. After the first few matches of not being able to lift anyone we were going nuts trying to figure out what happened..?? After two days of trying to figure it out, we realized that the current limiter was cutting us off on any bot over about 100 pounds. That being said, our primary design/plan of lifting 2 bots per match securing 60 points, got us 0 bots per match. We were dead in the water and useless at the Phoenix regional because of it. Just a valuable lesson for anyone trying to lift bots or making any last minute switches on these motors.

~Shea~

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Rob

Hi Guys,

After doing a bit of research on the 2 motors (9012 and 9003) and talking to FIRST, we are making much ado about nothing.

I hope those are your words, not FIRST's. If their's, I wonder why I called all over and drove 120 miles to get the right ones. If their's, I guess the FP service center guys had me pegged when they thought I was nuts for caring!

R27> Motors, pumps, and, Robot Controllers from previous robots can not be used in addition those provided in the 2007 Kit Of Parts. They may be used as direct one-to-one SPARE PARTS for those provided if the provided part fails or is damaged. They can only be used if they are identical to the part being replaced. Note that the Fisher-Price motor found in the 2007 Kit Of Parts (Part number 00968-9012) is different from the Fisher-Price motors used in most previous FIRST competitions. Only the Fisher-Price 00968-9012 motor may be used as a SPARE PART for the Fisher-Price motors provided in the 2007 Kit Of Parts.

[Rob]

Those are my words, not anything from FIRST. As far as FIRST is concerned, the only FP motor that can be on your bot is the 9012 version.

The reason I was saying much ado about nothing is that I was worried all of the hours tuning our control loops for the arm would be brushed away if the motor performance was different after the swap. Since the motor performance is identical in our application (not near stall torque and low current) I have no concern that changing the motor will cause us to have to re-tune our system.

Thanks for the help.

RAZ

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

I hope those are your words, not FIRST's. If their's, I wonder why I called all over and drove 120 miles to get the right ones. If their's, I guess the FP service center guys had me pegged when they thought I was nuts for caring!

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Rob

It is very important that we find out if the pinion gear is the same on the 9012 and 9003 motors. If it is not, I need to find out how many teeth each has so I can be sure to have the appropriate parts to put the 9003 pinion on the 9012 motor. If anyone can help with this we will be eternally grateful.

If they're the 9003s left over from last year, they have the 19 tooth pinion, like the current 9012. You can verify things without taking the assembly apart by looking for a raised "19" in two places on the black (or white) F-P gearbox case. Other versions will have a different pair of numbers. Be aware that it's just the 9003 motor that's illegal; the gearboxes are COTS items (from a F-P service centre), as are the pinions.

188's KOP 9012s and the identical spares were all equipped with the 19 tooth pinion, as were the 9003s from last year.