Week 1 Impressions of Rack 'N Roll

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by Sgraff_SRHS06

A bot that can be dominant in this game is...truthfully speaking...going to have to go through match play like there's no tomorrow and score as many as possible. Speed more than brute force is going to win this game.

I can't disagree more. Big bots who play D will be able to control the rack. Defense is going to win games, not offense. The best alliance will be 1 ramp bot (with 2x12" lifting), one scoring bot ( needs to score 2-3 ringers with heavy D) and a good defensive Bot. Winning matches will be in the 68-76 point range.

[Pavan Dave]

I think I'lI think I'll answer my own questions now.

After my initial reaction to the game I have had a COMPLETE change in mind toward the whole thing thanks to a couple of people, (you know who you are...I hope).

From the regionals I have seen I thought that it is slow. The game seems to last forever if there are not as competitive teams on the field, but if there is a tube on a robot constantly, and the drivers are great, it makes for a great match up. This will tremendously change though because of the technologies that are present that teams can utilize (See this topic!) I expect to see two full turns scored around the racks (2X8) by two teams by the end of championships.

I also think that the minor disappointments I have with the use of certain game pieces (spoilers) will dramatically change throughout the course of the season due to teams learning from others' mistakes. Although they will not be used as much in qualifying rounds I think that by Lone Star and Las Vegas, that there will be at least six spoilers placed per regional at the end of the days and definitely at championships there will be six to ten placed a day.

Besides the slow start I believe that this game holds a giant opportunity for teams to work together in a different sense. Instead of trying to win or lose I believe this year more friendships will form due to the nature of this game and the different interactions throughout game play. My only rant for this game is the "initiating end sequence" thing which really got annoying for me after a couple of matches, but I guess I can live with it!

Peace,
Pavan.

[Joe Matt]

I've had my worries about this game from day one, but now I feel confident that we have a great game on our hands. Is it perfect? No. I still think Aim High was as close to perfection in a game we have ever come to, but I see this game more as a new Stack Attack, while the scoring on the field is important, the end-all-be-all is the end scoring/ramp.

[Scott Perry]

The first week is always very clumsy. Making any lasting judgement until the next regionals would be premature.

Eventually, we should see successful platformers that will be in dire need of competant scorers who can block and stack. I also hope to see bonus-dependant alliances begin to be beaten by a team of robots that really hang the ringers quickly.


I do agree on two things. So far, the ring scoring has been a disappointment. Also, the radomizing algorithum has needed a VAST improvement for years.

[Uberbots]

The lack of autonomous scoring was quite a disappointment. i mean, i know that it is difficult to an extent, but i still would think that some teams would have been able to get it a lot better than i saw.
it was also surprising how much impact that a good defensive robot had. seriously, alot of the 0-0's were a cause of high defense.

[Rich Ross]

Lets get real. This game<decent. At least so far.

My thoughts...

1. A robot should really need to do more than unfold (mind you, i love the unfolding robots and i would build one given the chance now. Imagine a robot that unfolded across the entire home zone... it wouldn't even need drive wheels!!) Even the best ramp bot should need to play some defense or do something besides open up.

2. Spoilers should matter. Nuff said.

3. Keepers are not valuable enough. Teams dont care that much about it. Last year, teams had incentive. This year? not so much. Until MANY teams score spoilers, the keeper just isn't that big of a deal.

4. I do not want to play against the same team over and over again. I dont care if its a great fight every time or not. more randomization is needed. ASAP

5. if there arent more serious scorers, the ramps are going to be the difference. Three ramp bots could easily win a regional (based on what's happened so far) if the opposing alliance doesnt have a ramp. 45's vistory came not because of tubes, but because they had a strategy that integrated the ramp of their teammate (my apologies to 45's alliance partners. I beleive they are 1444 and 829)

Grats on the regional wins for those teams and also grats to all chairmans and other award winners.

[wilsonmw04]

Wow, i just can't get over the amount of negativity there is about this game. Today at VCU, the crowd was going wild. The game is great in concept and good in practice. The only thing that I would love to see changed before next week, would be that more yellow flags be issued for, how shall i put it, "Aggressive Defense". If we want a more exciting game we need to give the scoring bots a bit of protection. We had great scoring bots at VCU (1086 and 384 come to mind) who couldn't play their game because of aggressive defense. Having a robot who's job is just to keep folks from scoring is not what I feel FIRST is about. We had robots breaking, being slammed into the rack and being flipped by “defensive” play. Only 2 yellow flags were given. The Refs need to start letting those yellow flags fly. Defense is too strong, we need a clarification of what is allowed for defensive play.

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

The only thing that I would love to see changed before next week, would be that more yellow flags be issued for, how shall i put it, "Aggressive Defense". If we want a more exciting game we need to give the scoring bots a bit of protection. Defense is too strong, we need a clarification of what is allowed for defensive play.

You already have a very clear clarification - no ramming, no wedging, and no tipping.

Teams must be egregiously violating the rules to warrant Yellow Cards. I believe the rules are clear on what constitutes legal defense and what is over the line. I thought the refs did a good job this week of letting teams display both styles of play.

The scoring bots should give THEMSELVES protection by designing in the ability to hold their own against or maneuver around a defensive push. Many veteran offensive teams have learned how to do this effectively. It's something that comes with experience.

It's all part of the original design challenge. Remastering the rules or referee guidance as the season goes on to favor one style of play over the other is not a good idea.....

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

You already have a very clear clarification - no ramming, no wedging, and no tipping.

The scoring bots should have given THEMSELVES protection by designing in the ability to hold their own against a defensive push. *cough* 25 *cough*

It's part of the design challenge. Remastering the rules as the season goes on to favor one style of play over the other is not a good idea.....

I not asking for a "remastering of the rules", i'm asking for a clarification. When is defense too agressive? I saw one bot go out there and play defense and get one of the few yellow flags of the event. The next 10 matches I saw multiple robots use the same tactics not get a flag. "Defense" is taking the rack out of play for most of the matches. If we really want this game to be called "rack N roll", we need to get the rack back in play or it's going to be a battle of the ramps.

[overlord]

The finals today during the NJ Regional were a completely different story. Spoilers became a more common thing in the elimination rounds. A big turn was Hawaii taking away a 256 wrap around from team 25 by placing one spoiler. I am sad that my team is so tight on budget and cannot go to any other regionals. I think that Rack 'n' Roll got off to a slow start but ended up being a huge success especially in the NJ Regional Final. Maybe the NYC and Philly finals will have more success.

[John Gutmann]

It is deffinately more exciting to watch then I origonally thought.

[Chief Samwize]

i can't wait until Detriot, our first competition. After seeing the game this past weekend I'm really excited to see how we match up to the competition.
I love the game but i was suprised with the no spoiler thing.
Anyway...
Congrats to all teams this past weekend and good luck to everyone else.

[s_forbes]

After watching the practice matches, I had some doubt about the possibility of high scoring matches. But after watching the eliminations at VCU and New Jersey, it looks like high scoring matches will be fairly common later on (I can't wait to see nationals...)

[Eldarion]

As a programmer, I am very disappointed by the lack of emphasis FIRST placed on autonomous. 2 points is something that can be gotten far easier by making the arm a little faster, playing a little better defense, etc.

According to the scoring for this year's game, the most important thing is to lift two robots 12". Problem is, everyone decided to make a ramp bot, with a few exceptions. This makes it difficult to get ramp bots on top of other ramp / lifting bots, and as an added 'bonus' decreases the amount of scoring on the rack.

I think that the autonomous period should have been emphasized much more strongly (maybe a 15-point bonus per autonomous keeper? This would have made autonomous worth almost as much as lifting, and would have decreased the amount of ramp bots out there in my opinion.)

Also, a little note as to the rack. There are several times when the rack was moved such that both lights were out of the field of view of the camera. There probably should have been lights above all 8 columns, not just the four columns. This would also have allowed semi-automatic scoring during manual mode, and may once again have increased the number of ringers and spoilers placed on the rack. 90 seconds or less is not much time to be able to manually place more than a couple of tubes! (I am assuming a minimum of 30 seconds to be able to set up to lift / drive into position to be lifted)

So, there you are. I don't mean to bash this year's game, but to offer constructive criticism of it in the hopes that next year's game will be better.

[PandaMan]

Although autonomous may not be as vital as it was last year, a dependable autonomous can play a key role in winning heavy defensive matches. (We tied our last qualification match 4-4; an autonomous cap would have been very nice at that point). Also, autonomous makes it much easier to start building a ring, as opposed to starting from scratch during the teleoperated period. I agree that autonomous should be given more importance like last year, but it isn't a total bust this year.