Week 1 Impressions of Rack 'N Roll

[VEN]

I think that there is too much defensive play this year and less that involves completing a certain task. Also, with the creation of the game a choice was given to create a ramp bot or a bot that scores and as it turns out many took the path of the ramp bot cause the game play to be violent and sometimes pointless.

Overall, from what I saw watching the New Jersey webcast, the game IS exciting and there are many sweet robots out there

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by VEN

Also, with the creation of the game a choice was given to create a ramp bot or a bot that scores and as it turns out many took the path of the ramp bot cause the game play to be violent and sometimes pointless.

Exactly what i was thinking Ven.

[Alex Cormier]

The game is lame.
untill the eliminations come around then the game gets exciting again! I am sure that ATL will be totally diffrent then the regionals.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Alex Cormier

The game is lame.

Please Alex! Don't hold back; tell us what you really think.

[Alex Cormier]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Please Alex! Don't hold back; tell us what you really think.

that's susposed to be a huge period at the end.

[Joel J]

I dunno. Its picking up, it looks like.

[d.courtney]

Rack N' Roll is a very great concept, but thats all it is, there are too many quirks that weren't worked out, and many factors which killed this game. I have to say I very much was looking forward to this game when it was released, I expected many excellent scoring bots, after all the lessons we learned in '05 in what works and what doesn't. But when the game died for me was here on CD, when I saw 3 out of every 4 teams were a ramp bot, compromising scoring in order to be able to have teams climb up a 30 degree ramp, something even their robot couldn't do. So here is what I believe killed the game:

1. Lack of a central focus. Lets face it teams have tried everything this year, they make a robot with a ramp, and a scorer, thus equally compromising each other, then most of them don't have enough weight to make a 6 wheeled robot or track drive to drive up other ramps and can't compromise the lift they need in order to drive up one, so they settle to have a low clearance robot that others can drive on. With a vast majority of teams doing this, we end up with a lot of compromised robots. I respect the fact that some teams can do everything in the game and very well, but not every team can accomplish this, what we needed to do was K.I.S.S.

2. Not enough emphasis on autonomous. Ask anyone within FIRST and those with the most effective autonomous 9 times out of 10 have the most effective robot. With this year having little gain to have an effective autonomous, teams put it on the back burner worrying solely on mechanical, well a lesson we all need to take from, is that a well programmed average robot usually outperforms a poorly programmed engineered robot. Point is Autonomous not only scores you a few points, but teaches that programmer many things that they can bring back into their operator control, such as PID loops and sensors.

3. Spoilers mean almost nothing in the game. Chances are if you have to place a spoiler on a teams tube as to break up that row of 8 you don't have a good enough scorer to begin with as you should have stopped it by placing your own tube ages ago. Then if its evenly matched it makes more sense to double your points instead of play with the other teams tubes, something they are more liable to take note of and defend. Had FIRST instead said that a spoiler reverses the side said tube counted for, then it would have more uses in the game and we would see it played much more often.

4. The last thing that killed the game is the "random" schedules. This takes half of what FIRST is and throws it out the door, instead of having it so that no team is against any other team, playing with one match and playing against the next, we find many teams playing the same team time and time again. It also punishes the teams on the receiving end of a "stacked" side when they may have a very capable robot worthy of a top 8 placement. This is the only thing I feel FIRST can do for this game.

[Travis Hoffman]

I am more than mildly amused by alliances that ramp and score 60, daring the other non-ramp alliance to get a row of 7.....

Or even score 30 early, and send the other robot to harass the 3 offenders.

Seen it a few times.

[geowasp]

well, i think a quick fix of the game is to simpl8y extend the period of the main phase, giving teams more time to put on tubes, 2:30 to get tubes on AND get on a ramp is just too little, teams are retreating too early, too often to get on the ramp bot, sometimes making the last seconds very boring for the audience, where one simply sees a couple of bots struggling to go up some ramp. in addition, lowering the bonus for the ramp would also have encouraged more teams to go for more of a offensive bots, making it more of a "rack and roll" than "roll on the ramp". For those who watch the NBA, u may have noticed a recent influx of offensively minded teams, due to new rules against perimeter defense, creating a more exciting game to watch. A more exciting game = more people to watch = attracting more kids to join FIRST = good thing

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

I am more than mildly amused by alliances that ramp and score 60, daring the other non-ramp alliance to get a row of 7.....

Or even score 30 early, and send the other robot to harass the 3 offenders.

Seen it a few times.

Definently. It seems to be very effective- at least during qualifiers.

Originally Posted by BBnum3

I'm a huge soccer fan as well (see the sig) and I understand what you're saying. One of the most exciting matches I've ever seen was a 0-0 draw. There's a difference between two extremely evenly matched alliances duking it out and two struggling alliances failing to score...

And see, this is the problem I see. I play soccer, and when there is a great player, you know when he's making a great play. You can tell when an awesome rip comes inches from the goal post, and you can tell when a striker and stopper go down together in the mud.

In Rack&Roll, from the web-casts anyways, you can't really tell. It looks like a lot of fumbling around much of the time- not an offense vs. defense struggle. On the field, I'm sure it's a different matter, but from the viewers perspective, it's pretty bad. In 2006, you could tell that teams were jockeying for position to shoot, and spectators were rewarded when a defensive robot pushed a team around, causing a volley of balls to fly overhead.

Much of this apparent fumbling comes from what appears to be indecision. Last year, teams would be scoring or defending. The last twenty seconds, teams would either make a ramp attempt, or continue to score. Maybe there would be a commited, last second try to get up the ramp. This year, teams seem to be just kinda driving around the field at times, and at the end of matches, teams often don't seem to have a good idea whether or not they're going to climb a ramp. Sometimes they make a half hearted attempt, then drive back onto the field to push around a few tubes. It looks clumsy.

I also think that it will get better with time, but right now, it's not real good.

[Beth Sweet]

First off, I am terrified that the inefficient "random" alliances are going to control the game and teams who might not bring much to the table may end up in the top 8 because they had the same good partners for 8 matches and that good teams will miss out because they were paired with partners who didn't compliment them. I seriously hope that there will be some sort of adjustment to this system, because as is, I think that this system can completely run the regionals.

Secondly, I am a bit disappointed in the lack of ramp action. I barely saw any ramping until the tournament (VCU). I am rather surprised by this. I wonder if this will vary by regional.

Third, I too am surprised that the spoilers are so unused. Perhaps as the weeks progress and teams go to second and third regionals this will improve.

[Neo3One3]

Originally Posted by d.courtney

4. The last thing that killed the game is the "random" schedules. This takes half of what FIRST is and throws it out the door, instead of having it so that no team is against any other team, playing with one match and playing against the next, we find many teams playing the same team time and time again. It also punishes the teams on the receiving end of a "stacked" side when they may have a very capable robot worthy of a top 8 placement. This is the only thing I feel FIRST can do for this game.

I agree greatly with this. During the BAE Regional we faced one of our opponents four times throughout qualifiers, and another three times. Truly, something needs to be done about this scheduling.

[JoeXIII'007]

Seeing what everyone is saying about this year's game, I really cannot wait for GLR, Buckeye, and ESPECIALLY the championships... no... really... I can't wait. I just hope there is some more good scoring than I have heard/read of.



-Joe

PS: That said, I am anticipating a more dynamic game as the season progresses.

[Not2B]

I just want to say thanks to all the teams that "went first" this weekend. I'm sure next week will be different, because all of us other teams are now adjusting our thought patterns, and stratagies.

Things will adjust as the season goes on... don't sweat it.

[dpraedan]

Originally Posted by Neo3One3

I agree greatly with this. During the BAE Regional we faced one of our opponents four times throughout qualifiers, and another three times. Truly, something needs to be done about this scheduling.

Indeed, we faced you guys four times, and it seems like you were either facing us or 172. We have some alumni who were volunteering during GSR and we learned from them that the alliance selections are actually not random. There's an algorithm that is essentially dependent on the team numbers themselves, and it pitted lower number teams against one another and vice versa, with the idea that the more experienced teams would be performing better than the newer teams. This, of course, is quite untrue, but that seems to be the way it played out.