Rough Play in Rack N Roll

[sanddrag]

I witnessed some VERY rough play in rack and roll, I mean, back up at 03 Stack Attack levels, and it never got penalized. I mean, it seems like the rules go through a lot of trouble to explain that this is not the way to play the game. I mean, hard hitting. Robots penetrating others, etc.

Has anyone witnessed "the yellow flag" being given? Or even a rough play penalty?

To me, the referees seem scared to give penalties. Lessons Learned 2005 is probably at fault for that.

[Michael Hill]

I don't believe any were given out in St. Louis; but seriously, is FIRST going too overboard on rough play rules? I think we should be able to rough each other up a little bit. It seems that teams have been forced to get a little less aggressive every year. I know rough play isn't necessarily in the spirit of the competition, but I think it's something that should still be allowed. It's a harsh reality.

[xxwolfwoodxx1]

I agree, we were given absolute hell out here in Arizona too. The refs should have been tougher on ramming, I mean at one part our 2-part arm was basically pulled apart, thankfully though it was thanks a little bent metal and was a quick repair and we didnt miss a match.

by the way, what lessons learned in 2005 are you talking about

[Marcel]

I think whatever you decide every team should play by you know, if one team can play rough then all the other teams should equally be allowed to be as rough because we usually play fair and don't do anything too rough you know and once we had this robot that pinned us against the wall and kept backing up a little when we pushed so we could get away but they kept ramming us against the wall.

It wasn't fair because we couldn't do anything and because of that we couldn't finnish scoring or get to the other side of the field for bonus points so we ended up losing. Whatever happens all teams should have a fair chance to be rough you know what I mean? We didn't want to play rough against that team because it was against the rules to do what they did to us so we didn't want to risk being disqualified or anything.

[sdcantrell56]

What you are saying could actually be legal. Complete ramming is not allowed but pinning and then backing up for a while and pinning again is completely legal. It is unfortunate that you weren't able to continue with your game plan, but I would have to say that that was simply good defense on the other teams part. Next time I would say either push back, if you are stronger or run away. I don't know if they were truly ramming which would make this all wrong but if they weren't this is my 2 cents.

[MasterChief 573]

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

[sdcantrell56]

I'm going to have to admit that my team tipped 2 robots in one match. Neither one was intentional nor was it malicious (I was the coach); however the referees viewed it as so malicious that they immediately disqualified us without giving a yellow or red card at all. I understand that they are doing a very tough job, but I feel that this was completely out of line. The first robot that we tipped hit us first from all the way across the field and our driver was backing up and our claw simply got got on their robot and pulled it over. The second one I told our driver to play defense on another robot. He drove over to the robot and slowed down just to push it. Unfortunately in the heat of the moment he did not realize that our arm was still elevated so the referees saw that our arm made contact with the other team high and then it tipped over. Unfortunately the referees did not understand that our gripper is hinged and physically could not have tipped the other team. It just so happened that the other team had two ramps on the side that were angled up and inward so as our gripper touched them the gripper folded back towards our robot and could not have pushed the other team. I am not mad at the referees because they do such a great job 99% of the time, I just think that occasionally they do mess up. Also I think that it is crazy for teams to build such top heavy robots that they are in danger of tipping over when someone plays defense on them, especially after watching past games. Ok sorry everyone for my rant.

[MasterChief 573]

In my situation neither of the incidents were provoked.

[sdcantrell56]

Then I would say they should most definitely be penalized at a minimum a yellow card.

[MasterChief 573]

Well they weren't and it cost us the chance to move on to the semi-finals.

[sdcantrell56]

Unfortunately that is the nature of FIRST. For instance the pairing algorithm probably cost us a second regional win. We were paired with the same nonfunctioning robots for the entire regional. Most matches we would score either 5 or 6 ringers by ourselves and still end up losing due to various penalties that our partners incurred. As for your situation, the referees have a difficult job to try to keep the matches fair, as well as not penalize every little thing, and sometimes they mess up but there is really nothing we can do about it.

[MasterChief 573]

We were in the same boat for the qualifiers, but yeah what are you gonna do?

[ALIBI]

Originally Posted by MasterChief 573

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

QF2-3 was brutal. Pretty tough to place ringers when two robots are not just being pushed around but are either tipped over or forced into the rack so hard that they get tangled with it. It seemed as though most of the finals turned into defensive battles. Especially with no ringers scored in the final match. We still had fun.

[burkechrs1]

Something the drivers need to learn for this game is to adjust there gameplay on the fly. We're all going to hit by defense that we think is unfair, strictly because it is really good and because of it we can't score. I learned real quickly that our robot couldn't outpush most people, so for the rest of the regional instead of pushing back I ran away. There is always going to be some other robot trying to stop you, the robot with the smartest driver is going to win the battle. You don't need to push back or be faster, just play smarter and don't think that because you have a plan you need to stick to it. In our last quarterfianls match I realized that they were playing such good defense that i wasn't going ot be able to score that I gave up on scoring and played defense on there scoring bot and chose to rely on ramps to win. It made it a much closer game than it would have been if I didn't do that. That just shows that strategy is not set in stone and it can and sometimes must be altered on the fly in order to be successful. SO I think we should stop complaining about playing to rough and losing cuz we got tipped and just play smarter at our next regional or at nationals. And if you don't have any regionals left and aren't going to nationals then talking about it is fine but it isn't going to change that fact that you lost and there is nothing you can do about it.

On that note, I would like to say that I like the fact that this is one of the roughest games to date. In fact the fact that these games do get rough is one reason why I joined the team my freshman year. It brings people in. Nobody wants to watch a game that involves no contact.... It's just.... boring =D

[Dan Petrovic]

Originally Posted by MasterChief 573

I know that 1720 got one at Boilermaker but that's about it. I know one team that I think should've gotten one, call me crazy but when you almost cause one robot to tip and then knock another one down in the same match you deserve a penalty. I'm not gonna throw out names but you know who you are!

Okay. I know exactly who you are talking about and I was talking with their driver.

He said that he was caught between the rack and the two robots they knocked over both times. He had no choice but to push until those robots moved.

I know where you are coming from and that does seem like something that should have been penalized, but in both cases they were simply pushing within the bumper zone. There was no high-end tipping, no wedges, no high speed ramming. It was fair, it was clean. They didn't make an obvious effort to tip those robots over.

Originally Posted by burkechrs1

On that note, I would like to say that I like the fact that this is one of the roughest games to date. In fact the fact that these games do get rough is one reason why I joined the team my freshman year. It brings people in. Nobody wants to watch a game that involves no contact.... It's just.... boring =D

Yeah, I would agree with you if there wasn't one small detail...

Stack Attack 2003

Nothing quite like four robots all racing at full power to be the king of the hill.