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Unread 03-11-2007, 12:50 PM
burkechrs1 burkechrs1 is offline
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Please stop complaining...

I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST. It seems like everyone is finding "something" wrong with the game this year and complaining. Everywhere you look there's "This rule sucks" or "The randomizer sucks" or "There were no yellow cards called when they hit us..." To me it just sounds like a lot of sore losing. FIRST isn't about winning. And francly it really shouldn't matter if you played the same team 5 times in one regional. Yea, it could probabaly get annoying, but flaming FIRST on CD about how they have "made mistakes" is no way to solve problems. It's basically like going and talking smack about someone when they aren't there to defend themselves. I know everyone here doesn't intend to flame FIRST but that's what it's turning into. After every regional there is always a thread of what needs to be changed or what went wrong. Seriously, we should stop. It's to late to change rules now, so there is no use in complaining about them. IMO, if you lost a round because of a rule you dont agree on, then change your strategy and win the next match anyway. That's how you prove you have a good robot/team, not by complaining and trying to put someone to blame. So from now on I say we all stop flaming and pointing out what went wrong or what bad calls were made and start pointing out how much fun we all have at the regionals and what FIRST actually has done for us. Because it isn't that easy to put on a flawless event with no issues and I think FIRST deserves waaaaay more credit than we give them.

Just my .02.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 12:51 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

And I just want to add, it's fine to discuss a rule but once it turns into somethingmore than clarification and into something about how the rule shouldn't even exist then it's gone to far...

Hope everyone's having fun. See ya'll at SVR!
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Unread 03-11-2007, 12:59 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

There do seem to be more complaints this year than I'm used to, but it is important to keep in mind that while FIRST is a game, it is also a business, and we are its customers. When we find rules or occurances that are contrary to the deliverables of FIRST that we signed up and paid for, it is perfectly reasonable to complain. Getting crushed by the same team all day is not very inspirational. A sudden rule change that makes it substantially more difficult to finish your robot is not very inspirational. Leaving students feeling that they were not treated fairly or consistently is not very inspirational. There is certainly some sore loser syndrome around here from time to time, but there are also a lot of legitimate complaints. It is perfectly reasonable to complain when you understand what you paid for and you didn't get it.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 01:02 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.
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Last edited by Andrew Blair : 03-11-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

What you may call complaining is usually constructive criticism. Often, reflections are made after the event so that changes can be made for the better in the future. Many important people read CD for suggestions and issues about FIRST and related events so that they can take input back to their regional planning committees.

Many times, this "complaining" also alerts the unaware of a situation that can be prevented. Now that it has been discussed in-depth about how tough inspection was this year, teams at future regionals will now know to get their robot inspected early to prevent any unfortunate events.

With the randomization of matches complaint, apparently someone took note of it, as I don't recall playing against the same teams over and over at the Florida Regional, which was the 2nd week. Even if we did, we were prepared for the worse after reading the thread about it.

Although it is tireless to read endless threads about dissatisfaction with rules and the game, it is helpful to teams to be able to vent, have someone hear their story, or at least know that someone shared the same experience.

CD isn't just a FIRST-worshiping forum, it's a place where teams come to discuss FIRST and the events related. Controversial rules and issues are discussed, which often lead to heated discussions, but I'm sure at the end of the day, everyone has the same goal, and there is usually not much negative associated with it. So if we just simply address all the good about an event and FIRST, with everything else pushed to the back burner and no criticism, I'm sure that a lot will go undone, and many preventable situations will occur.

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Unread 03-11-2007, 01:43 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Am i reading this right. A post complaining about complaining
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Unread 03-11-2007, 01:52 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

I wouldn't see it as complaining. I see it as problem finding, analysis, and repairing.

Perhaps the volume of that happening this year is indicative of broader happenings and trends.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 02:26 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blair View Post
Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?
Well I very much agree with the problems that banebots has been causing teams. Our robot has been using the banebots 2-to-1 trannys and all they can do is give us headaches. They have broken 5 times, and The last one happened during the semi-finals of a match.. We broke out pits on the field, and in the end, were not able to compete any more. However, THANK YOU team voltage for subbing for us, giving us 2nd place.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 02:35 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Blair View Post
Most of us were saying "this randomizer sucks" long before we actually competed.

When a team loses due to the dynamics of the game, they should not complain. When teams lose because of the failures of the game design, we should complain.

An excellent example: Banebot transmissions. I'm not sure if your team used them this year, but many teams did. Had teams not discussed the problem, there would be many, many teams with broken robots. And that wouldn't be very inspiring, eh?

If a soccer tourney hires a particular ref to oversee all games, and he happens to be colorblind and make terrible decisions, causing all blue shirted teams to lose, should you simply say "he tried his best, guess we should go home"? Nope, you figure out the problem and fix it.

I do not support negative criticism. But constructive criticism is necessary to ensure fairness to all teams.
Very nicely said, Andy. We should not accept the unacceptable because we need to be "good sports." "Fair and professional" needs to be two-directional.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 02:45 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

but wat are you complaining about? is it a rule that your team lost a match and now think it's dumb? or is it something that affects everyone and causes everyone problems? i did hear about the banebots thing, and i agree that something like that should be complained about, but if it's just a rule that a small group of people don't like, then leave it be. the "random match" thing was a mistake. get used to it, all humans make mistakes. dont jump on people's back for mistakes like that.

thats my $0.02
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Unread 03-11-2007, 03:06 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

That's what I mean. Constructive critism isn't complaining and the banebots issue needed to be brought up. Now it's when FIRST has addressed the issue and people continue to complain is when it gets outta hand. Bring up the issue and leave it at that. There is no more to be said once someone has brough it up.

And yes, I guess this was a thread complaining about people complaining =D
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Unread 03-11-2007, 03:09 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by burkechrs1 View Post
That's what I mean. Constructive critism isn't complaining and the banebots issue needed to be brought up. Now it's when FIRST has addressed the issue and people continue to complain is when it gets outta hand. Bring up the issue and leave it at that. There is no more to be said once someone has brough it up.

And yes, I guess this was a thread complaining about people complaining =D
Has FIRST addressed the randomizer problem? It was the same way last year, except now I see more people realizing that it's happening.

For some odd reason, I seem to think that FIRST actually likes to hear about people's problems in a constructive way. The actual "complaints" that I see are few and far between. There are people coming up with new ways to address an issue and then there are people telling their own run-ins with said issues. Neither are complaints.

That's my 4 half-pennies.
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Unread 03-11-2007, 03:28 PM
meaubry meaubry is offline
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Re: Please stop complaining...

All,
I will not condone or not condone anyone that posts complaints, nor congrats, nor discussions, or anything.

I will condone allowing anyone that stays within our web forum rules, the right to write what they want to - again - as long as they do so with respect and within the rules.

It is okay to share your thoughts with others.

Sometimes people disagree and complain about stuff that others do not agree with, depending on the compliant it is reiterated at nauseum.
Sometimes the number of posts in agreement is an indication of something that needs to be addressed, during, or after the season is done.

That is okay - frankly, sometimes "things" do need to be discussed in order for change to occur.

So, it is okay to complain - just do so with care, and within the rules.

That is one of the benefits of forming a community of FIRST participants - everyone that wants is allowed to participate.

If the compliant has no merit - it usually gets ignored, and we all move on.

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Unread 03-11-2007, 03:58 PM
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Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cziggy343 View Post
yeah, but i still think that there has been lots of complaining over nothing, or something that doesn't really matter, at least more so than most years. which was pretty much your point, so i agree with you.
What you consider to be complaining over nothing or something that doesn't matter may be a very important issue to other teams. It is vital to look at the situation from all points of view before judging or at least publicly expressing your opinion.
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