YMTC: Redabot Scores 30 Bonus Points?

[Natchez]

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You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

It's the Magnolia Regional championship rubber game! Redateam easily scores 5 low ringers and a couple of overlapping mid ringers to score 44 pre-bonus points. Satisfied with their 7 ringers, Redateam prepares for their traditional 60 bonus point ballet while Bluateam battles for every ringer and completes a 6 ringer top row to gain 64 pre-bonus points. Redabot deploys both of its independent ramps from each side of their robot. The first of Redabot's allies climbs on a ramp and is lifted in a matter of seconds; the second has trouble because the Redabot ramp is on top of a red ringer. After several attempts, the buzzer sounds with Redabot's unpopulated ramp still resting on the red ringer. The Redalliance gazes up from successfully lifting one robot to 17 inches to see that Bluateam has failed to get any of their robots off the ground. With a quick calculation, the Redalliance cheers crazily; in concert with Redateam's gaze, Bluateam lifts their head in disappointment of not scoring any bonus points. Realizing their second-place fate, the Blualliance holds their heads high while it seems that Redalliance is screaming from two inches away instead of the fifty foot reality. As the referees seemingly remove all hope from Blualliance by indicating no penalties, the Blualliance begins whispering and then erupts in jubilation without explanation.

Based on the 2007 Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[sanddrag]

I don't get what the issue is here. That redateam had a ramp on a ringer? Not even an issue. They win.

Oh, and I object to the 30 pts being called "bonus" points. They are points awarded to a main strategy in the game. Just because there is no scoring structure or game piece associated with these points does not mean that they are extra, or bonus.

[fredliu168]

Red alliance robot was touching a game object, which by transitivity was touching the other robot. Therefore by the rule that states the robot must not be touching a game object, red loses the extra points and loses the match 64 to 44.

Is that right?

[James1902]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Red alliance robot was touching a game object, which by transitivity was touching the other robot. Therefore by the rule that states the robot must not be touching a game object, red loses the extra points and loses the match 64 to 44.

I agree, the same rule apllies to the back wall. If the ramp bot is touching the back wall the bonus dosn't count even though the back wall isn't supporting the robot itself. Blue wins.

[Jack Jones]

The call will be made and the result determined by the highest ranking offical on scene. That's my preditction.

The lack of an appeals process means that the call will stand - at least until the next time it happens- then it's back to square one.

[Tetraman]

What you do, is remove or pop the ringer, and if the robot on the ramp loses height, than it doesn't count.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

What you do, is remove or pop the ringer, and if the robot on the ramp loses height, than it doesn't count.

Quoting <G103> The "robot loses height rule?

ADD: Too bad there isn't some kind of wireless communication we could use. So that during the regionals they could contact a Central Commitee, or supreme official, that could resolve all the hidden gray areas and define some of the wording. That way things wouldn't get called one way here, and another there. Oh well, guess we'll just have to wait till someone invents such a device.

[John Gutmann]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Quoting <G103> The "robot loses height rule?

ADD: Too bad there isn't some kind of wireless communication we could use. So that during the regionals they could contact a central commitee, or supreme official, that could resolve all the hidden gray areas and define some of the wording. That way things wouldn't get called one way here, and another there. Oh well, guess we'll just have to wait till someone invents such a device.

I believe they have one, its called a cell phone.

[Travis Hoffman]

The fact that this poll is split almost 50/50 right now is sad. The fact that referees have actually taken points away from alliances fitting redateam's endgame description is sad.

Can we get a little common sense here, people? Can we get a shout out from FIRST to all refs to provide a 100% logical and reasonable directive on how to make this call? Will there ever be one day eventually where we stop feeling the need to debate these rules on this forum because the rules are crystal clear to everyone, and the refereeing education and monitoring system is actually strong enough to eliminate these inconsistent calls from event to event?

GAH. If I were blueateam's alliance captain, I'd be ashamed at winning should a call against redateam be made in this manner, and I'd immediately forfeit my hollow "victory" for the sake of promoting common sense, logic, and reason throughout FIRST. I would seriously refuse to accept the trophy, for I'd be ashamed to benefit from such a lame ruling that would presume a ringer holding up part of a ramp on one side of the rampbot's drivebase is somehow magically supporting the robot lifted 12"+ on the other side of the drivebase.

GET REAL!

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by T. Hoffman

GAH. If I were blueateam's alliance captain, I'd be ashamed at winning should a call against redateam be made in this manner, and I'd immediately forfeit my hollow "victory" for the sake of promoting common sense, logic, and reason throughout FIRST. I would seriously refuse to accept the trophy, for I'd be ashamed to benefit from such a lame ruling that would presume a ringer holding up part of a ramp on one side of the rampbot's drivebase is somehow magically supporting the robot lifted 12"+ on the other side of the drivebase.

I would also not accept the trophy if i were the blue alliance.

It's either part of the game or it isn't. Would it be "lame" or "hollow" if blueateam had put the ringers there, under the ramp? No, it would have been a brilliant play. Otherwise, it's just luck. In any game or sport, and especially in this one, there is luck involved. If you refuse to allow that your opponent's bad luck can help you win a match at least as much as your good luck, then there aren't many trophies you can accept.

Of course, we're not talking about luck. The rule oughta be that the ramp unsupported by a tube should count, but if that's not the rule, than it isn't. We do need some consistency, but not everything is a travesty. If I'm on blueateam, I accept the trophy with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.

[smurfgirl]

Originally Posted by fredliu168

Red alliance robot was touching a game object, which by transitivity was touching the other robot. Therefore by the rule that states the robot must not be touching a game object, red loses the extra points and loses the match 64 to 44.

Is that right?

If you're going transitively, then can't you just as well say that a robot on a ramp touching the carpet doesn't count because the carpet is part of the field, and transitively the robot on the ramp is touching the carpet?

[BlondeNerd]

In one of our matches at Chesapeake, we had 2 robots on a ramp, but one side of the ramp, supporting one robot, was on top of a completely deflated tube. No bonus points were awarded. Based on this seemingly consistant precedent, Blue wins.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by smurfgirl

If you're going transitively, then can't you just as well say that a robot on a ramp touching the carpet doesn't count because the carpet is part of the field, and transitively the robot on the ramp is touching the carpet?

Transitivity in this context applies to support, not simple contact. If A supports B and B supports C, then according to the Q&A response, C is supported by A. If A is a game piece and C is a robot, C will not receive points for being raised off the carpet. This interpretation is simple, easily understood...and obviously unpopular. It looks like the root of the issue is that the word "supported" is not defined in the manual.

[Brandon Holley]

Im watching the NY regional webcast...my old team, team 11 was just screwed out of 30 pts for this EXACT SITUATION...i say its unfortunate

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Im watching the NY regional webcast...my old team, team 11 was just screwed out of 30 pts for this EXACT SITUATION...i say its unfortunate

Regardless of what appears officially in the rule book, at least it appears FIRST has communicated this ruling to all events moving forward. If it is common knowledge among teams, they will simply have to adjust. It is fair if everyone knows about it.

Dave, are there any other rule obscurities slated for YMTC stardom any time soon? If so, could we circumvent the process and get them out in the open through more widespread communication channels?