Picking alliances

[Alex Golec]

Advertising your team not only helps you when the alliance selection occurs, it also helps to boost your image and make you more recognizable to other people, judges, etc. There's something magical about the conciseness of flyers and buttons that can sell your team name.

While you probably should mention yourselves to the top seeded teams, I strongly recommend that you focus on seeking a complementary robot to play with (for example, being a double ramp marketing to a strong arm robot). Marketing yourself to those teams will not only make a compelling case to get picked, it also creates one of those "hidden gem" situations that ultimately benefits you in the eliminations.

Getting picked is not the key to elimination matches. Working with and advertising to robots that will build a strong alliance with you is.

Also, keep in mind that rankings are not the only representation of status or skill. You should go out to every match you play in seeking to become better, to try something new, to compete fiercely and fairly. Performing well despite any unfortunate situations generates attention and causes teams to notice you.

However, do take all this advice with a grain of salt: the spirit of the competition is not to get picked just for the prestige of it nor to do everything possible to sell yourselves - what you gain from the competition is more than just a medal. You gain experience and the will to go out into the world and constantly make improvements.

_Alex

[hipsterjr]

Rankings are a very poor repensentation. 342 was in the mid 20's of the Palmetto Regional, but we ended up beating the #1 ranked team in the finals. We did try to sell ourselfs. We went to 1319 (Golden Flash) and showed them our relieable ablity to climb ramps on the practice field and diminstrated our arm. With Flash's ramp, and both 832 and us scoring, we had a great team that went past ranking

[EmoMike]

Just so everybody knows! Your ranking means NOTHING. we (Chuck 84) just won the Philly Regional after choosing the 35th seeded team and the 19th seeded team and we came out on top. so don't let yourself think that if a team is seeded low they suck.

[VanMan]

When lots of teams are picking their alliance partners they will look at what they want. Some teams look at rank also, some don't. We didn't really have a scout team so at the last minute we just looked at who we had seen play before and we wanted a awesome offense, and a second defense/offense bot. I can tell you that we did not look at the ranks. The ranks that our alliance partners had were 28 and 48. To us, ranks did not matter (actually we didn't even look at them until after), we wanted teams that complimented our abilities. We are a purely defense/ramp bot. We won the regional.

Another thing to think about is a good team image. Before eliminations, we did not know that we would even get in, let alone pick for ourselves. We wanted to have an image that stuck out in people's minds. I think that our Awkward Turtles stuck out in peoples minds.

[LightWaves1636]

Originally Posted by Mr. Freeman

I don't think informing the top teams of your robot's ability is a bad thing. It might sound "desperate", but if you do it right it might actually be really helpful.
At the Colorado regional there was some team (sorry, forgot the number) that made a really helpful scouting booklet of all the teams at the regional.
During the alliance selections, alliances 1-8 picked pretty quickly, they knew who they wanted to choose. But alliance 8 took a really long time to make their second choice, and I saw almost every single other alliance on the field flipping through that scouting manual like crazy while teams 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, made their decision.
I think some of the selection decisions were rushed simply because the alliances weren't aware of which teams were both A) not already picked, and B) preformed well but were ranked low enough that no one really noticed them (from what I've heard, this seems to be fairly common).
Talking to the high ranked teams could, if nothing else, give them a team to pick if their first few choices are taken by other the alliances.

I believe it was 1861, The S.H.A.R.C. team. that was so cool they did that for us, it really helped out in strategy. But yeah, it seemed at Colorado the alliance pickings were really rushed, me and the rest of Team 1636 were just sitting there waiting for someone to pick us or 1583. Luckily 555 did and we're grateful for it, very grateful(Love you guys-thanks for the buttons and the shirt). A lot of the alliances I thought could have been more thought out but the top 8 weren't given anytime to figure out what they really wanted like they did with us last year. Of course I don't know why I didn't mention this, but buddy yourselves up with a good bot that will most likely be picked up is another good plan, risky, but it may work.(1636 and 1583)

[Bomberofdoom]

Originally Posted by jgannon

If other teams have good scouts, qualifying rank means nothing. Good scouts will find good teams, regardless of rank. There are plenty of stories around here of teams who finished dead last and still got picked for elims (most recently, team 4 won LA after seeding last). On the other hand, my team finished in the top 20 at both events we entered this year, and still didn't get picked. There's nothing wrong with selling yourself to other teams, particularly teams that you played well with during qualifying. Scouts do sometimes miss good teams, and it never hurts to give them a little reminder. In any case, don't beat yourself up over it. Only 24 teams get to play in elims. Sometimes you're in the 24, and sometimes you aren't.

Yep, team 2230 in Israel got a bad ranking due to loads of problems with our ranking alliances and we always lost with them(and they won with the other alliances, so they ranked up while we kept going down untill we reached the last ranking), but in the end we got picked by the #6 alliance and we reached the semi-finals which for our first year rocks!

[David55]

Originally Posted by Bomberofdoom

Yep, team 2230 in Israel got a bad ranking due to loads of problems with our ranking alliances and we always lost with them(and they won with the other alliances, so they ranked up while we kept going down untill we reached the last ranking), but in the end we got picked by the #6 alliance and we reached the semi-finals which for our first year rocks!

I have to agree with Nir!
Although team 2230 was ranked last in the seeding, they had an amazing robot. It just comes to show how much the ranking depends on luck.
You can see 2230's robot here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckTOJ...elated&search=

[Brandon Holley]

I think everyone can see that scouting is what will get you picked and not ranked...but here is a little tale from the 2004 season that proves this even more...and how "schmoozing" can help your team out:

At the 2004 Chesepeake regional, our team was doing really well. We had been doing so well after Friday that it looked like we were going to make the top 8, and we did in fact make the top 8. Come saturday morning, team 122 came over, attempting to "schmooze" us, and they had perfect timing, and perfect execution. They told us their story of why they had finished near the bottom of the rankings. They said we really are a great robot, come watch us on the practice field.

We checked our scouting notes and saw that some scouts thought this team was capable of being fantastic. We watched them on the practice field and were amazed at what they could do and how they finished near the bottom.

We all talked and finally agreed we would take this team near the bottom of the rankings as our 1st pick!! We went into the quarterfinals, and WON. We did unfortunately lose in the semifinals...but this is not where the story ends.


We went to another regional after Chesepeake that year, the inaugural Palmetto Regional. We played FANTASTICALLY here and finished number 3, and were picked by the number 2 seed. We go through the whole picking process, and now its time to pick our 3rd partner....who to choose?? Well our good friends from Chesepeake team 122 were also competing at the Palmetto Regional, and they once again finished poorly in the rankings. We convinced our partners to pick team 122 as our 3rd partner, telling them they would not be disappointed...and they were not because we won the whole regional, and we have team 122 to thank. The 3rd team, 9 times out of 10 is what wins you the regional, especially when the matches are 2 v. 2. So thanks again 122, and we hope you had a great 2004 season because I know we did.

This is just another example of how scouting, schmoozing, and most importantly a good head on your shoulders will help your team get into eliminations..even if you did not place well in qualifiers.

[Alpha 997]

If your team’s robot is a capable one, you won’t have to worry about selling yourself to the top team if you ranked low. A good team most likely would have a nice scouting system and don’t even look at the ranking sheet. We didn’t go of the ranking sheet when we picked. We had our own ranking sheet that tells us who matches us the best.

Here’s what happened at PNW. The team that ranked the top 3 wasn’t the most experience team out there. We ranked 4th and we had a nice scouting system. I don’t believe the top 3 teams did. From their pick, it seems like that they picked off the ranking only. The first ranked team picked the second ranked team and the third ranked team picked some other team in the top 8. We, as the 4th ranked team got to pick or first choice ring placer and what our data showed as the best ring placer there, 272. We were hoping the second best ring placer, 360, would not get picked and circle back to us because they were ranked so low. But they got picked a few picks ahead of our second pick. Team 272 and 360 was clearly the best ring placers at PNW, but because of the messed up “randomization” matching system, they played each other every single qualifying match. 272 ended up ranking 11th and 360 was ranked 36. Thanks to our scouting team, we were able to pick the best ones out of the crowd and win it all.

So if you have a good bot but ranked low, it might even be a good thing. Because if the top ranked teams weren’t the best ones, and mostly likely won’t have a scouting system, you would be saved to be picked by a good team that didn’t get ranked too high in the top 8 who has a nice scouting system.

[sovierr]

One point to make about Atlanta. Our team will be overworked since we have an FRC team (180) and an FVC team (3228) at the events. FVC is going to be a monster to scout. The current team list has 69 teams, but there are supposed to be some international teams that are not present on the list yet. The website says "almost 100 teams". They are not breaking us into different divisions like FRC.

Scouting (the way we scout for FRC) will not be possible, so we will just do our best. With other teams in the same situation, I will probably put together a promotional flyer for our FVC team.

[geowasp]

I love the responses I'm getting, kudos to the CD community out there, but I still have one huge dillema with "selling" our own team:
the draft system is built the way it is for a reason, if my team tries to "sell" our team to another team that might've picked a better robot, we are simply screwing that alliance over. Maybe from my perspective, our robot was great, and in our "selling" process, it also sounds great, but is it a fact? I don't want to sway a team from possibly picking a more worthy candidate. If we were to enter eliminations, and my team performs worse than a robot that was not picked (but might've been the original decision of a alliance captain), i would feel horrible if this was a result of our "schomoozing" up to the alliance captain. I believed in the system, in that if you have a good robot worthy of eliminations, it would be picked. Maybe the one or 2 teams had bad scouting, and we fell through, but there were potentially, 16 team captains (for the second pick) up there with their lists, it is hard for me to believe that our robot's performance fell through the cracks for all 16 teams. We are not used car salesmen, and I still feel like the performance of a robot is best judged from a unbiased point of view, void of inputs from the teams that are being chosen. In addition, i felt like the SHARC team's booklet on the teams at the CO regional spoiled the chances for a good team ranked low to be picked. The booklet did not include actual performance of each team, and only the specs. specs can look good on paper, and when a team did not have good scouting, they simply relied on the booklet. It was obvious that the 8th alliance captain at CO just flipped through that book for his selections, maybe he had notes written in there, but it was clear that he had no clear choices (as he let the 7th alliance captain make their 2nd round pick before him). While I believe this kind of booklet was produced in goodwill by team SHARC, and I welcome their efforts to ease scouting, I believe it is each team's responsibility to still scout, and base their opinion each robot on their own data.

[Ken Loyd]

"I love the responses I'm getting, kudos to the CD community out there, but I still have one huge dillema with "selling" our own team:
the draft system is built the way it is for a reason, if my team tries to "sell" our team to another team that might've picked a better robot, we are simply screwing that alliance over."

You are not "screwing that alliance over." I think most teams look for partners who compliment their own robots. When teams try to sell themselves to us, we try to be honest with them. You can tell a team with two wheel drive and casters in the front that you are looking for a robot with a little more power. You can tell a robot without an arm that you are looking for a hanging robot. The key is to tell the selling robot NICELY!

Keep on selling yourself but don't be disappointed if you are not selected. Think of the fun you had at the regional. When we do not get selected, we go sit near a team we know and cheer with them. It never hurts to start selling a year early!

Ken

[Alpha 997]

Originally Posted by geowasp

I love the responses I'm getting, kudos to the CD community out there, but I still have one huge dillema with "selling" our own team:
the draft system is built the way it is for a reason, if my team tries to "sell" our team to another team that might've picked a better robot, we are simply screwing that alliance over. Maybe from my perspective, our robot was great, and in our "selling" process, it also sounds great, but is it a fact? I don't want to sway a team from possibly picking a more worthy candidate. If we were to enter eliminations, and my team performs worse than a robot that was not picked (but might've been the original decision of a alliance captain), i would feel horrible if this was a result of our "schomoozing" up to the alliance captain. I believed in the system, in that if you have a good robot worthy of eliminations, it would be picked. Maybe the one or 2 teams had bad scouting, and we fell through, but there were potentially, 16 team captains (for the second pick) up there with their lists, it is hard for me to believe that our robot's performance fell through the cracks for all 16 teams. We are not used car salesmen, and I still feel like the performance of a robot is best judged from a unbiased point of view, void of inputs from the teams that are being chosen. In addition, i felt like the SHARC team's booklet on the teams at the CO regional spoiled the chances for a good team ranked low to be picked. The booklet did not include actual performance of each team, and only the specs. specs can look good on paper, and when a team did not have good scouting, they simply relied on the booklet. It was obvious that the 8th alliance captain at CO just flipped through that book for his selections, maybe he had notes written in there, but it was clear that he had no clear choices (as he let the 7th alliance captain make their 2nd round pick before him). While I believe this kind of booklet was produced in goodwill by team SHARC, and I welcome their efforts to ease scouting, I believe it is each team's responsibility to still scout, and base their opinion each robot on their own data.

I agree. It is a team’s responsibility to have a good scouting system if they are a good team and is going to pick. And yes, good teams have their own systems that show them which robot best compliment their own robot. We had a lifter so we were not looking for lifters, no matter now good they are. So many people tried to sell themselves to us at PNW it got a little awkward. And I just try to tell them that we have a scouting system that will make them stand out if their robot fits us. Out scouting team takes the data of every match and makes comments about each robot so that we have complete statistics and feature for every single robot in the regional (It really doesn’t take much. All you need is 6 students to take data and a couple to enter and organize the data. You do need a complete spreadsheet ahead of time though.). We then factor the areas that compliment us such as ring scoring and ability to climb and rank them in our own list. That list is completely independent of the matches rank. I know what you mean about bias in selection and I believe that our system minimizes bias opinions.

[Mr. Freeman]

The scouting booklet made by SHARC couldn't possibly have included the robot's performances, it was distributed on Friday morning to aide in every team's scouting. It wasn't a ranking booklet.

Informing teams of your performance, not what you THINK you can do but what you actually HAVE DONE, during the competition isn't going to unfairly sway an alliance's opinion.
Used car salesmen are supposed to sell you a car full of defects by exaggerating the few good points of the car and hiding every defect. This isn't what you're doing when you go to other teams to inform them of your robot. You are accurately informing the teams of your capabilities.

[geowasp]

And here's another issue:
If a team's scouting is not good enough to notice a good robot, do you really want to be selected by them? Chances are, that their other pick would not be carefully chosen either. As a matter of fact, if they choose you, then you may lose the chance to be placed on a better alliance (assuming this is round 2 of selections).

On the flip side, what i think the "selling" process sold be, is giving the top 12 teams a datasheet, of objective performance of ur robot at the regional. for example, for rack and roll, u may include total number of tubes scored, with the team numbers of those you've climbed onto, and those that have climbed onto you. This way, teams with limited resources and without a complete scouting database have a chance to take a look at your robot.

I guess its a lesson at arrogance for me this year, I simply assumed our team would get picked, and made no effort to inform the alliance captains of our performance. Completely relying on the system doesn't quite work out all the time. Too bad it's my last year.