Championship 2007 - Atlanta - What Needs To Be Improved

[chaoticprout]

[quote=Shelbo;620459]

Originally Posted by GRaduns340

Not having been in the stands for much of the competition I don't know how things went out there, but I do agree that the algorithm really hurt a lot of teams. Just an example, team 316 was the second seed alliance at FLR this year, a well-deserved spot. Then at Championship they didn't win a single match and came in dead last. I might not know the whole story there, but that seemed more than a little unfair.

QUOTE]
Thank you for the kind words...they mean a lot.

We should have enountered 35 different robots on the field; we only encountered 29 due to duplications/repeats.
Suggestion: have a human look over the match sheets once the computer generates them.

-Shelbo's Mom

Having a human look wouldn't work at all. You'd need a human to either have an amazing memory to notice certain things that show up, such as the same team playing with or against the same teams two or three times, in a match list of over 80 teams in 100+ matches, in 4 divisions, that would be hard in it's own right. Even if you had the manpower, how would you correctly change it making it "fair" for all teams. Having a human swap things around would be make it even more of an algorithm of doom.
Just my $0.02

~Michael

[triggerhappy336]

Originally Posted by Mr MOE

* TIME FOR FINALS / AWARDS
Either FIRST should shorten the awards/finals or incorporate the actual running time in the program. For the past X years, this part of the Championship has taken longer than allotted in the schedule. Let's just modify the schedule to indicate their true length. Then teams can plan accordingly and, perhaps, will not need to leave before they are complete.

CONGRADULATIONS MOE!!!!!!

I say this on behalf of all of Team 2228 because unfortunally we were one of the teams that had to leave early. You guys know how much we love MOE. I know you believe me when I say we were excited for you when we found out at the train station that you guys won. Congratulations again, we couldn't be happier for team MOE.

Just a note on us having to leave early. We planned our trip according to the FIRST schedule. We knew our departure was going to cut it close but we thought we would be able to see it all. As I've read from other posts, the finals run long every year. If so, I think it should reflect in the schedule so if possible, teams can plan accordingly. We left our seats in front of Galileo during one of the dancing intermissions and tried to do so as quickly and quietly as possible. My apology’s if we were too noisy or in the way.

Just some things I as a first time attendee think can be improved.

*MORE QUALIFICAION MATCHES
One of the things my team discussed on the way back home was the price vs game time. Going to Championships is an enormous amount to only play 7 qualification matches. With more and more regionals being added, this number is only going to get lower. We are considering limiting the number of times we go to once every four years max, regardless of weather we qualify or not. Even just 3 more qualification matches could justify this price tag a bit more. There are two ways I can see to increase the number of matches.

One is to add a fifth field. I think it would be great if the side seats were taken advantage of by adding a field on the side opposite the pit entrance. If that makes sense to anyone. From what I saw, there should be enough space to fit another field. The other limitation would be volunteer and tech personal, to which supply I cannot speak to.

The other would be to extend the competition into Wednesday. Maybe change weds morn to uncrating, weds afternoon to working and practice matches, Thursday morning more practice, Thursday aft to sat morning qualification rounds. Even though this would drive the price tag up, I think it would make Championships a much more wholesome and cost worthy experience.

*GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM
Although FIRST cannot do anything about these issue's, I think they need to be brought up anyways. One lack of GP occurred on Friday morning. On Thursday, our team got to the dome early and got front row seats to Galileo right next to the pit entrance. On Friday we got the dome even earlier hoping to get the same seats. When we got there on Friday the dome staff had it roped off because of leaking water. We dealt with this by sending most of the team to sit on the other side of the pit entrance and leaving some members at the top of the stairs with the official so that we could get those seats then send the rest of the team over. What happened was a team jumped the caution tape, sat down, and then when told by the dome staff that they had to move, blatantly refused. From what I heard (at this point I was in the pits getting ready for qual rounds) the dome staff was yelling at this team demanding that they move, and this team completely ignored them. Not only is this unfair to teams that listened to the officials, it gives a bad impression to the entire dome staff about the type of people who compete in FIRST Robotics. In the end this worked out best for us because we were able to cheer for other teams much more effectively (giving everyone high fives as they walk out is awesome) even if our view of our field was pretty bad.

Another occurrence might not necessarily be a lack of GP, but we kind of expected from what we have heard from other teams, and from what we have experienced with other teams. Twice during the competition our bot ended up with our wheels in the air, not by our own actions. Both times neither team talked to us. In practice rounds, when our forklifts fell off while playing defense against 191 (completely our fault), they came right over after the match and said, 'did you caught in something? can it be fixed? is there a way we can help?' I don't expect this from a team every time something goes wrong, but when our bot is disabled, it would be nice to at least get a, 'hey guys, our bad.'

I don’t want to make it sound like I’m whining, but from I had been told to expect from FIRST teams, especially low number FIRST teams, this is below the bar of expectations.

*PENALTY CONSISTANCEY
I know the refs are hard working people and I appreciate all they do, and this has been addressed already so all I'll say is that it is extremely disheartening to get tipped and have no penalty called, and then seeing later a disqualification right away on Einstein for the same thing.

Overall it was a great experience but I think with some changes that it can be much better.

[artdutra04]

FVC needs to be a three-day event next year! With the rate at which the FIRST Vex Challenge has been growing, and with the relative small number of four qualification rounds for each competing team, adding another day (Saturday) onto the FVC competition is a much needed and deserved addition to the Championships.

Parking price reduction. Not sure how. But I had some friends in the ATL area (within an hour away) that were turned off by coming to simply watch the event because of parking prices. I think that offering some kind of compensation would increase outside spectator participation.

FIRST cannot change the price the venue sets for parking, unless FIRST decides to cover the parking costs themselves. If you would like to save money on parking, go to one of the MARTA stations in the Atlanta suburbs with free parking, and take the train into downtown Atlanta, which is only $1.75 per ride.

Originally Posted by LightWaves1636

5.The "commercials" - I think it would have better if they did close ups of the drivers getting ready, the crowds cheering, I don't know, the energy seemed lower than it could have been.

Just like during any other sporting event, the event sponsors pay many of the bills and rightfully deserve commercial time as one of their perks for sponsoring the event.

[Andrew Y.]

I too agree with the leaving of people before the awards completed.

I think FIRST should not have told people they were going to give out tubes. This caused A HUGE rush for the field. And i think the people that rushed the fields were very disrespectful to the teams trying to listen to the rest of the ceremony and the teams that were receiving their trophies at the time.

I know FIRST tried their best with the black wrist bands to make sure teams only had 2 people in the student representative seats....but i still saw a team with 5 students....5!!

[CrosbyAR]

I agree with everyone about the consistency of ref calls. While I was only on Galileo, I noticed inconsistency on not only the same calls within the matches we competed, but in the other matches on the field, and even from many of the divisions to einstein.

I would also like to appoligize for 229's early departure from the competition, but like 2228 we had to catch a train (the same train) to come all the way up the coast to get back home. It would have made what turned out, because of weather and other issues, to be a longer than expected ride twice as long.

And I appoligize if any of this has been said already by another member of our team.


-Alex (Coach)

[BoyWithCape195]

Originally Posted by CrosbyAR

I would also like to appoligize for 229's early departure from the competition, but like 2228 we had to catch a train (the same train) to come all the way up the coast to get back home. It would have made what turned out, because of weather and other issues, to be a longer than expected ride twice as long.

And I appoligize if any of this has been said already by another member of our team.


-Alex (Coach)

Im just curious, had your team made it to Einstien what would you have done?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I would really like if teams stopped posting so many flyers about 'safety'. It's one thing to promote safety, but I feel the amount of these posters all over the pits was a bit too much and was very annoying. Its quite apparent that the only reason people are trying to be safe is to win an award. I feel the original intent of the safety award has been lost, and its existence is hampering the quality of the events.

[triggerhappy336]

Originally Posted by BoyWithCape195

Im just curious, had your team made it to Einstien what would you have done?

Probably the same thing our team would've done, play as long as we were in and then hope to god we catch the train. It ended up being delayed an hour so they prob would've made it anyways.

[Evenstar_342]

1. Awards Ceremony

This happens every year, the final ceremony always runs longer than expected. When my team saw that it was scheduled from 4:00 to 6:00, we started almost taking bets about how long it would actually go. We had to leave just after 7:00 pm, as a result of a combination of rookies who didn't realise about the Chairman's and the teachers who said we absolutely had to leave after the last match since they'd had enough of the competition and we had told the bus driver that we would be out by 6:00 and wanted to leave before the storm hit the east coast. I would have no problem if FIRST would mark out a longer time for the ceremony, I just think that it would be much fairer to teams who have to leave that night or want to attend the team social.

Also, I think its totally hypocritical that FIRST makes such a big deal that we have deadlines to produce the robot, yet they act as if their deadlines are no big deal. Up until that point, the scheduling was fine (the matches were even running ahead of schedule, which was great!), but we produce our most important "product", our robot, on time, and its insane when FIRST consistently produces their most important "product" at Atlanta, the closing ceremonies, late and over time.

2. Judging

I was very disappointed by the judging. 342 was not expecting any awards, but we felt very shocked at some of the judges' behaviour (myself especially as team spokesperson, trying to train someone else, as this is my last season as a student). We always invite (politely) all judges to stop by our pit area by offering them a button, introducing ourselves and thanking them for volunteering. Many judges would ignore me and Catharine, walking right past us or glaring at us as we tried to give them a button. The two or three that were assigned to our team, acted like it was almost an afterthought to come by.

The safety judges were also as confusing. I saw most of them huddled in corners talking or just walking around. This was very different than in Palmetto, where the judges were always watching. Many teams never yelled "robot coming through!" and I almost got run over probably a couple dozen times, sometimes in full view of the safety judges, who simply didn't seem interested or like they wre paying attention. I was shocked at this, since I figured that safety judges were there not just to judge the competition, but also to help keep people safe.

Not really a complaint, but I'd also be curious to hear the experiences foreign teams has had with judging. I know in FLL, translators are provided, but I was wondering if anyone has any problems with judge miscommunications. I just mention this because Friday while asking a safety judge where a team was, I saw him go ballistic on an Israeli mentor (who I don't think spoke English), screaming at him from the entrance of the pit area to wear his safety glasses. The safety signs in different languages were a great idea (although, not taping them to the floor would also be a great idea )

I understand if there is a massive judge shortage (I know that was a problem at Palmetto, but the judges still spent a lot of time with each team), and that I do not know how to solve. However, I would suggest FIRST recruting former students and mentors to team up with the professionals, since they would have a different take on teams that perhaps the professional judges that have not participated in FIRST.

Otherwise, I had a great time. Other than the walk between the Dome and pits (which I didn't think was that bad, I certainly needed the exercise after eating all the junk food!), I think the location is great. Atlanta is definetly not my favourite city, but FIRST can't do anything about the crime and the Hyatt area seemed rather safe. The event volunteers were saints and I got to meet FLL and FRC teams from all over the planet (thanks to 401 -My deep condolences to all VT students on CD-, 1188, 1574, 2238 and some FLL teams for letting me hang out with them) and, of course, we had a wonderful time as a team in Atlanta. Good luck to everyone next year!

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Evenstar_342

2. Judging

I was very disappointed by the judging. 342 was not expecting any awards, but we felt very shocked at some of the judges' behaviour (myself especially as team spokesperson, trying to train someone else, as this is my last season as a student). We always invite (politely) all judges to stop by our pit area by offering them a button, introducing ourselves and thanking them for volunteering. Many judges would ignore me and Catharine, walking right past us or glaring at us as we tried to give them a button. The two or three that were assigned to our team, acted like it was almost an afterthought to come by.

The safety judges were also as confusing. I saw most of them huddled in corners talking or just walking around. This was very different than in Palmetto, where the judges were always watching. Many teams never yelled "robot coming through!" and I almost got run over probably a couple dozen times, sometimes in full view of the safety judges, who simply didn't seem interested or like they wre paying attention. I was shocked at this, since I figured that safety judges were there not just to judge the competition, but also to help keep people safe.

Not really a complaint, but I'd also be curious to hear the experiences foreign teams has had with judging. I know in FLL, translators are provided, but I was wondering if anyone has any problems with judge miscommunications. I just mention this because Friday while asking a safety judge where a team was, I saw him go ballistic on an Israeli mentor (who I don't think spoke English), screaming at him from the entrance of the pit area to wear his safety glasses. The safety signs in different languages were a great idea (although, not taping them to the floor would also be a great idea )

I understand if there is a massive judge shortage (I know that was a problem at Palmetto, but the judges still spent a lot of time with each team), and that I do not know how to solve. However, I would suggest FIRST recruting former students and mentors to team up with the professionals, since they would have a different take on teams that perhaps the professional judges that have not participated in FIRST.

Otherwise, I had a great time. Other than the walk between the Dome and pits (which I didn't think was that bad, I certainly needed the exercise after eating all the junk food!), I think the location is great. Atlanta is definetly not my favourite city, but FIRST can't do anything about the crime and the Hyatt area seemed rather safe. The event volunteers were saints and I got to meet FLL and FRC teams from all over the planet (thanks to 401 -My deep condolences to all VT students on CD-, 1188, 1574, 2238 and some FLL teams for letting me hang out with them) and, of course, we had a wonderful time as a team in Atlanta. Good luck to everyone next year!

Judging is vastly different from regionals. Judging is broken into divisions, then into awards, with two judges assigned to each award in each section. Due to the nature, many times judges have ONE DAY to interview all the teams available for the award, watch matches of them, and write up why they want them to win. After that, on Saturday, they then present who they want to win to the other three divisions and talk it out.

While I know many judges are great people, many times the ones you go out to either aren't covering your award or aren't covering your division. If you didn't get an award on the regional level, you PROBABLY won't be looked at on the Championship level. There are 90 judges this year, and frankly, they have a lot to do in a little amount of time. And they're doing this for free.

[Evenstar_342]

Originally Posted by Joe Matt

Judging is vastly different from regionals. Judging is broken into divisions, then into awards, with two judges assigned to each award in each section. Due to the nature, many times judges have ONE DAY to interview all the teams available for the award, watch matches of them, and write up why they want them to win. After that, on Saturday, they then present who they want to win to the other three divisions and talk it out.

While I know many judges are great people, many times the ones you go out to either aren't covering your award or aren't covering your division. If you didn't get an award on the regional level, you PROBABLY won't be looked at on the Championship level.

Thanks for the clarification Joe! As I said, we were expecting to walk away with no awards, I guess we were just disappointed that a great deal of the judges acted like they were offended when we simply tried to offer them a button as they walked past our pit area.

(BTW, I'm not trying to spam the thread with multiple posts, and feel free to delete this if I've done something bad, but I don't know how to put a quote in my previous post! )

[Jason Morrella]

1. The match algorithm must be quietly put to rest out in the pasture. It's a ridiculous system, no random or fair aspect to it. The ONLY part of the OLD scoring system that actually worked was the match algorithm. FIRST fixed all the parts of the previous system that were broken (they deserve kudos for finally getting a scoring system that worked well the entire season) and then they unfortunately fixed the only thing that wasn't broken, the match generator. Go back to the algorithm that the teams (aka the customers) actually liked.

2. Woodie Flowers Award Winners must have a wall in the Hall of Fame. This is SOOOO obvious it is dumbfounding that it doesn't exist (It's been recommended/requested for 2-3 years)

3. FVC closing ceremonies need to be improved, much like the FLL closing ceremonies were greatly improved.

4. Teams must get more matches. Schools and sponsors are charged way too much money to attend the championships to only play a few times. As someone else stated at the FVC event, if you have more undefeated teams then playoff alliances - then something is seriously wrong. You can not claim something is a "competition" when a team can go undefeated and potentially still not make the playoffs. The options of starting FRC matches on Thursday and extending FVC matches to Saturday is a good ideas - even if JUST ONE OR TWO MORE MATCHES.

5. Bring back the honorable mention list for the Chairman's Award and highlight the winner more. Those teams have done more for FIRST and FIRST growth than anyone, and deserve to be recognized and celebrated for all their hard work.

6. BIG ONE. Rule enforcement & consistency. The Yellow/Red card experiment was a colossal failure. They typically weren't given, there was no consistency in how rules were enforced, and they frequently meant nothing many times when given (an action that changes the outcome from a loss into a victory, that receives a 10 point penalty, but still results in a win for the violator is not a penalty). This is not the fault of the refs (they are volunteers who don't get adequate training, are trying their best and have the best intentions) or the teams who break the rules (they wouldn't do it if the rules were enforced). This was the first year I can recall when many events and divisions were decided by the referees instead of by the teams on the field, and that should never be the case. A very wise and accomplished mentor/coach in FIRST said to me "many refs, once the playoffs start, feel they don't want to make a call that determines the outcome of a match....what they don't realize is that by NOT making a call that is indeed a rule, they ARE determining the outcome of the match....only they are punishing the alliance that didn't break the rules instead of the alliance that did". I think he put it very well and I wish all the refs were trained to take that into consideration when a team is flipped, damaged or pinned by actions that violate the rules of the game.

Important point - For years now, FIRST has allocated a budget to training Judge Advisors and having many of them go to multiple events to ensure consistency. It has been requested for a few years now that FIRST realize that the training and consistency of referees is just as important as judges (if not more important). FIRST should allocate an adequate budget to train a core group of Head Referees each year before the Regionals start, cover their travel and expenses to attend multiple events so that a well trained and consistent group of refs will be at each event and on each Championship field. They must be on the same page regarding was is/isn't a DQ, how rules should be enforced and when warnings should be given - and it needs to be that way in from week 1 until end of the Championship finals. It directly impacts the integrity of the program and the experience teams have after all the hard work they've put in over the year - the teams (again...the customers) deserve this and this year they did not get it.

[AndyB]

I loved the widescreen on Einstein and the driver cams were a very nice touch.

Something I would change however would be some way to try and keep teams in the stands after the competition is over to watch the chairman's award presentation. This is the most prestigous award in FIRST and should be recognized as so, and not just something that can be skipped so we can all go eat some noodles and cake...

Also, I'm sure this has been said (I haven't read the whole topic yet), but the numbers were going the wrong way on the rack on Einstein.

One last thing, it was rediculous on Curie, waiting for everyone's alliance captains to get there, teams should be prepared.

[Robocat1]

I agree that it needs to be emphasized, SEVERAL times, during finals/awards that the Chairman's Award will be announced after the Champions receive their awards and that ALL teams should remain seated until after that time. I know that when our team was vying for the award in 2004 we did notice, with disappointement, that so many were leaving. The noise takes away from the moment.
Grascious Professionalism dictates, I would think, that all teams stay to honor the winners of our most prestigious award.

The lack of confetti for the Chairman's Award really disappointed us - the whole confetti/balloons spectacle really emphasized the importance of winning this event (congrats MOE - well deserved!)

I also find it troublesome that so many people come and go from their seats during speeches - making noise and blocking views.
Perhaps "ushers" could be instructed to allow people to enter the stands only during applause and other "breaks", which I think is just common courtesy at any public assembly, unless an emergency arises.

Finally, we were very frustrated by not being allowed to bring in our "signs on a stick" and then finding all these teams around us with "signs on a stick".

But, overall, considering the vast number of people and things going on, its a well organized event.

[Zyik]

-moved from other thread-

I vote for more dancing. Honestly, watching that webcast, we need to dance more. The people in the stands dancing looked to be obsurcing veiws as well, not that this was a big deal as they looked to only standup at the breaks.

Ok in all honestly I do meen that, at SVR and Davis there were areas for dancing team-members, there should be one per divison at championships to. However, space in the dome makes this unlikely, but dancing allows the teams that arn't on the feild to still participate, move around, jump up and down, etc. allows them to keep the adrenaline going. I think that if this was in place, the crowd might be even more responsive. *shrug* just my two bits. I don't even know if non-crazy-california regionals have alot of dancing.