Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by Liz Smith

Well, I don't know exactly where you've been trying to referee, but I'm a Sophomore in college and I this year I refereed at 2 regionals (Pittsburgh and NYC) as well as at the Championship Event.

In my opinion, in response to people questioning the referees consistancy, the referees spent most of Thursday at the Championship discussing the rules and the minor details of the game. The head referees spent even longer discussing each and every rule. The referees in this competition are not oblivious to the controversies the come up within the game.

Now, on being informed of the rules. What you think may be inconsistancies with calls, may just be you just not knowing the rules of the game well enough. Besides the referee meeting, there was the drivers meeting at the championship, where the referees and the drivers discussed certain rules and how the calls were going to be made at the event. The drivers meeting answered all the questions that the drivers from the teams in all the divisions had. Unless you were at that entire drivers meeting, I don't think you have a fair say in how a play should have been called. I don't know what makes some of you think that you can trash the referees, maybe its because you think that unlike teams, they don't read CD.. but they do, and maybe you should be a little more careful about what you say about the referees.

First off, what Tom said is right. In our areas (Boston/NJ/UTC/as well as many others), it is all about giving back to the sponsors and who you know. For the most part, they just laugh, and toss the college kids off to the sides. Boston has been the best though, and allowing some of the younger kids more access to privileged areas. Wayne Penn was a fantastic volunteer coordinator, and much can be said about him. The Regionals you attended have a very small volunteer base, and can do things for college kids.
I must agree with Bharat on this one too. When you have almost the whole entire community complaining about inconsistency, something is wrong. I read the rules 3 times over, I'm a 3 year driver, don't tell me I don't know the rules. I have every right to share my displeasure with all. No one has to do anything about it, that is their right too. I plan on speaking very loudly about poor refereeing. It has been getting progressively worse each year, this year was one of the worst I've seen.
We're the consumer, and very unhappy with the product, why shouldn't we speak up?
Note--I posted a thread in the Modded forum to continue discussion about what we think needs to be improved in FIRST, but they have yet to allow it..

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Corey Balint

We're the consumer, and very unhappy with the product, why shouldn't we speak up?

We're not just consumers. We're active participants. We don't just receive services. We perform services. We can't just complain that FIRST needs to improve. We are FIRST.

We shouldn't just speak up. We should take part. We need to make the changes.

The problem seems to be that some of the refs are having problems fulfilling the task given to them. Unless you can find funding to train and maintain a professional corps of FIRST referees, I think the best way to help is to inspire enthusiastic and capable volunteers to step forward. Complaining that the refs are [insert derogatory or insulting adjective here] certainly won't make others want to take on the job.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Liz Smith

Now, on being informed of the rules. What you think may be inconsistancies with calls, may just be you just not knowing the rules of the game well enough. Besides the referee meeting, there was the drivers meeting at the championship, where the referees and the drivers discussed certain rules and how the calls were going to be made at the event. The drivers meeting answered all the questions that the drivers from the teams in all the divisions had. Unless you were at that entire drivers meeting, I don't think you have a fair say in how a play should have been called. I don't know what makes some of you think that you can trash the referees, maybe its because you think that unlike teams, they don't read CD.. but they do, and maybe you should be a little more careful about what you say about the referees.

Yes, referees are volunteers. Yes, they are doing their best.

But clearly their best is not good enough. Maybe that isn't their fault. Maybe FIRST is not training them well enough. Maybe a lot of different things are contributing to the problem.

Bashing the referees is not ok. But overall this year has had the all around worst officiating I've seen in my 7 years in FRC. Some of it has been inconsistincies in the rules. Some of it has been flat out not knowing the rules. Some of it has been referees just not paying attention.

I've been a referee. I refereed three events in 05 (by far the hardest year to ref). I understand that everyone is human and makes mistakes. In fact, I was part of the ref crew at SVR that was involved in one of the biggest controversies of the year. I'd like to think I have some basis for understanding the difficulty of the job of the referee.

FIRST should at the very least address the consistency of the head refereeing. There is no way they will ever be able to field ref crews at every regional that are composed of multi year FIRST participants who have a very good idea of what kind of contact is acceptable and what is not. However, they absolutely must have a head ref who is on the same page as all the other head refs, and they must have the proper training to be able to train their other referees.

If this means that FIRST needs to train and pay 10-20 head referees to attend every event during the season, then that is what needs to be done. Teams are paying far too much money to show up at an event and then find out the rules will be called very differently from the way they were written, because the referees are interpreting them differently.

And as much as the referees do give up their time to come volunteer let's face it--some of them should not be refereeing. Some have never even seen the rulebook until they show up at the event. Some still don't know the rulebook completely even after the event. Perhaps there should be some sort of rules quiz given to the referees at each event to ensure that they at the very least understand all the basic rules like: when you can touch the controls after auton, when you receive penalties for home zone violations, etc.

[Greg Marra]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

I'd like to be a referee. Unfortunately, all of the events in my area aren't very fond of college folks having ref spots. Or maybe its just me.

Seconded. I would love to ref, but it seems that the ref positions are never assigned to college refs. It's especially hard, because FIRST wants people with reffing experience, which gives no opportunity to get any except at offseason events.

[Pat Arnold]

As a MARS Team 1523 supporter watching the match from the arena above the Curie field I found it hard to tell what occurred during the match. My impressions about semifinal 1-3 are an extension of what I saw in 1-1 and 1-2. Semifinal 1-1 was one of the most intense pushing/shoving matches I'd watched all year. It was obvious that both alliances were focused, skilled and determined. It is tremendously unfortunate that there are so many questions about the outcome and intent of their performance.

While I won't second guess the referee rulings, my greatest dissatisfaction throughout the competition and with this match was with how difficult it was to know why/how points (particularly penalty or bonus points) were or were not given. Following the Semifinal 1-3 match other spectators told me that 1114/469/1523 received a 10 point penalty for leaving robot parts on the field (1114's arm). Imagine the outrage this created.

In the future, greater information being shared by the Refs/announcer re: final scores for all matches would be extremely helpful.

Although this is probably not the right place, I'd like to thank Teams 1114 and 469 for allowing MARS Team 1523 to be a part of their tremendous alliance on Curie. The experience and chance to work with these teams was incredible.

[Vogel648]

In defense of referees, there is no way they are going to be 100% perfect with calls, look at basketball refs, with years of experience they still miss things and get things wrong.

Refs will never be perfect, it would be nice if they were, but they never will be.

[David Brinza]

Originally Posted by Pat A.

While I won't second guess the referee rulings, my greatest dissatisfaction throughout the competition and with this match was with how difficult it was to know why/how points (particularly penalty or bonus points) were or were not given. Following the Semifinal 1-3 match other spectators told me that 1114/469/1523 received a 10 point penalty for leaving robot parts on the field (1114's arm). Imagine the outrage this created.

In the future, greater information being shared by the Refs/announcer re: final scores for all matches would be extremely helpful.

The original score posted was 40-10. A 10-point penalty was later assessed to the red alliance for pinning, final score: 30-10. No penalty was assessed to the blue alliance.

Everyone would like a more complete explanation of penalties and rulings regarding scoring. Keep in mind that FIRST is under considerable time pressure to get the matches completed. The championship event this year ran more than a hour past the scheduled time.

[Nawaid Ladak]

How to solve this refereeing issue.....

1. KEEP ALL THE CAMERA'S ACTIVE, all the camera's NASA and FIRST use must be kept recorded, therefore, something like this can be replayed to the referees and/or the crowd via the big screen. This will allow the referees a replay of the match from a different angle

2. OPT FOR CAMERAS ON ROBOTS, give teams the option to add cameras to their robot (1523 did this at the Florida Regional in 2005 and it looked pretty cool). give the referees and the FIRST community full access to these cameras, this will ensure that there is no ramming ABOVE the bumper zone

3. HIRE THE REFEREE'S, get someone who is not familiar to the game, who won't play favorites, who has refereed something else before like football or basketball. (basketball being the better, due to the active amount of game play.) therefore the refs are eliminated from the blame, if the refs are paid it will only bump registration up a maximum amount of say $100, that $100 from each team = $4000 per referee team consisting of 8 refs, 4 refs at the corners, a head ref, a clock operator, a red alliance ref, and a blue alliance ref. Now the referees will not be afraid of throwing out the yellow card or red card

4. CREATE A CHALLENGE SYSTEM, allow teams a form to challenge the refs, like in football, with the things stated above, this would be a affordable way to make sure problems like what happened last Saturday won't happen again, remember, 1114 had to complain to get that 10 point penalty. but a system needs to be set up, ie: teams can challenge to get a penelty but not for removing one, an item on the feild, like a removed ringer etc.

__________ Other Items

karthik, thanks for updating us on the situation, I would still love to hear from someone on the field from Team 48 though, i think that would give a lot of us the answers that we want.


Saying that 1114 are the good guys and 48 are the bad guys is a ridiculous statement. Some of us watch sports, lets say Peyton Manning is playing in the Super bowl and Brian Urlacker takes out Peyton's knees while tackling him as he is throwing the ball downfallen to a wide open Marvin Harrison, note, the game is in Overtime. Are you making a game saving tackle, or taking out a talented player from ever playing to his former level???

[Corey Balint]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

How to solve this refereeing issue.....

1. KEEP ALL THE CAMERA'S ACTIVE, all the camera's NASA and FIRST use must be kept recorded, therefore, something like this can be replayed to the referees and/or the crowd via the big screen. This will allow the referees a replay of the match from a different angle

2. OPT FOR CAMERAS ON ROBOTS, give teams the option to add cameras to their robot (1523 did this at the Florida Regional in 2005 and it looked pretty cool). give the referees and the FIRST community full access to these cameras, this will ensure that there is no ramming ABOVE the bumper zone

3. HIRE THE REFEREE'S, get someone who is not familiar to the game, who won't play favorites, who has refereed something else before like football or basketball. (basketball being the better, due to the active amount of game play.) therefore the refs are eliminated from the blame, if the refs are paid it will only bump registration up a maximum amount of say $100, that $100 from each team = $4000 per referee team consisting of 8 refs, 4 refs at the corners, a head ref, a clock operator, a red alliance ref, and a blue alliance ref. Now the referees will not be afraid of throwing out the yellow card or red card

4. CREATE A CHALLENGE SYSTEM, allow teams a form to challenge the refs, like in football, with the things stated above, this would be a affordable way to make sure problems like what happened last Saturday won't happen again, remember, 1114 had to complain to get that 10 point penalty. but a system needs to be set up, ie: teams can challenge to get a penelty but not for removing one, an item on the feild, like a removed ringer etc.

1 and 4 would waste too much time. 2 and 3 would be too costly.
It doesn't need to be that difficult. You just need a precise ten minute video for demonstrations. A phone conference like they have had, is not the answer.

[xzvrw2]

Ok I think we need get off of the topic of 48 breaking 1114s arm. I am not going to say what my opinion is on it, i think that it is not needed for this thread, and if you really want to know it pm me and i will tell you. But the main thing that should be addressed here is why the ringer was not scored. The ringer with 1114s completly broken off arm still attached to it. I would like to know why it was scored as it was. I dont know if it is in the rules that says that the arm, that is completly off of the robot, is still apart of it, but from what i hear, the arm is apart of the feild now and therefore apart of the ringer. meaning that the ringer should have been scored. i dont know if it would have made a difference in the match, but i think that someone needs to look in to it. i cant right now because i am ogoing to be having breakfast with my grandparents...we are having eggs bacon and toast...it should be yummy..im excited...haha

[Nawaid Ladak]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I'm on 1114's side on this one.. not only because of the fatality suffered by their robot, but because of how consistently poor the calls were by the refs this weekend. I don't know.. 229 partially suffered from a few bad calls (scored ringers not counting, tipped alliance partners not resulting in any form of penalization, etc), but nothing really that compares to what I witnessed in the divisional eliminations as I walked around.

I'm speechless this year.

No one could have predicted how nationals turned out this year, AND FOR GOOD REASON.

The referees decisions are final-- and that has been shown by the record books, but I'll just have to say their POWER in these situations does not strongly correlate with their ABILITY to ensure that these finals calls are just-- that is, inline with what has been written in the rules.

This whole year has been weird, and I must say that I'm glad its over.

I just wanted to bring up a suggestion, Just like they have in football, why don't these refs have a booth review, just like the refs bothered to do at waterloo in qf2.4. allow a team to throw a red flag onto the field to call a challenge, just like in football, if the challenge is overturned, then it's overturned, but if the ruling stands, then that alliance loses their timeout. I think that would really help stuff like this from ever happening.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by FreedomForce

I just wanted to bring up a suggestion, Just like they have in football, why don't these refs have a booth review, just like the refs bothered to do at waterloo in qf2.4. allow a team to throw a red flag onto the field to call a challenge, just like in football, if the challenge is overturned, then it's overturned, but if the ruling stands, then that alliance loses their timeout. I think that would really help stuff like this from ever happening.

In football they have 20 cameras covering every play and very expensive production equipment. Do you want your entry fee to double?

We have to rely on humans and humans aren’t perfect. We just need to suck up our GP and go on.

All-in-all I think the refs do an amazing job under pretty intense and stressful situation. I’m glad so many hard working people give up their vacation days and come help us play our game.

[AdamHeard]

We recieved ramming penalties for defense much less rough than that... The reffing was not consistent this year.

[Steve W]

I can see that this thread is quickly going down hill. I am closing the thread till tomorrow morning so that cooler heads will prevail. When re opened please think about what and how you are saying it.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I'm speechless this year.

No one could have predicted how nationals turned out this year, AND FOR GOOD REASON.

The referees decisions are final-- and that has been shown by the record books, but I'll just have to say their POWER in these situations does not strongly correlate with their ABILITY to ensure that these finals calls are just-- that is, inline with what has been written in the rules.

This whole year has been weird, and I must say that I'm glad its over.

I agree as well.

The tube should have counted since once the arm broke off it is considered part of the field. I use a 50 question test on rules before a 121 driver can touch joysticks. From the 4 competitions I've seen this year, the rules need to simpler and enforced.