Curie Semifinal 1 - 3, what happened?

[waialua359]

the rules in pretty much ALL the regionals that I saw and been too, had LAXED refereeing. Our arm broke in the finals in the NJ regional while it was clearly stuck in the rack and we received constant ramming also while in that predicament.
It was the nature of the game and how the regionals unfolded, EVEN THOUGH, the rules at the beginning of January stated, you cant do that and you may be disqualified.
Im just saying, we are not going to complain about it anymore and it is the nature of what happened in some tough hard fought competition.
What a shame, but it just happened.

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Joel J.

I'm on 1114's side on this one.. not only because of the fatality suffered by their robot, but because of how consistently poor the calls were by the refs this weekend.

You're not the only one, Joel, people seem to be having difficulty forming an objective opinion on this match and the reffing. The fact that their arm broke off has absolutely nothing to do with DQing 48 or not. 1114's arm got caught in the rack while they were trying to score with someone playing defense on them.
As a driver who has played some defense this year I would have done the exact same thing as 48's driver. If you're trying to defend against someone who is just about to score but hasn't yet placed and released the ringer you're a bad driver if you DON'T keep pushing

Originally Posted by Karthik

Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened

Just because they knew what happened doesn't make them guilty! It may be hard to see from behind the rack and across the field, but sounds travels fine and I'm sure they hear the crack and saw the arm dangling from the ringer...
They stopped playing defense on 1114 because playing defense against a bot that can't score isn't much use. Or would it be more "graciously professional" to pretend like they still did?

Originally Posted by Karthik

Fact: Team 48 was booed by a large section of the Curie stands (1114 was not part of this group) when they were announced for their next match. I have never seen this at FIRST event before, and I think it says a lot about how upset people were about this incident.

Again, people feel so badly for 1114 because they're such a grade A+ team and would likely have been Curie champs (and then who knows what).
This section of the stands obviously failed to see things objectively here. 1114 = good guys; 48 = bad guys. right?

Originally Posted by Karthik

Fact: 48 pinned 1114 for 34 seconds, without backing up by 3 feet for 3 seconds.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...23692796016767
Definitely not a fact. The pinning in question starts at 1:02 and ends at 1:10 (that's 8 seconds btw). And before you say that 48 didn't back up 3 feet for 3 seconds, that rule doesn't apply when you are pushing back and moving back the 3 feet WITH THEM. That only makes it easier/quicker for them to re-engage in a pushing match they're sure to win.
The pinning stopped at 1:10 and started again at 1:14 (that's 4 seconds btw) and they certainly moved back more than 3 feet. If 1114 wanted to get out of that situation they should have stayed put, turned to the side and booked it out of there in the 3+ seconds and 3+ feet they had available instead of chasing after them for god's sake!
(watch carefully the space in between 1114 and the RACK, not 48 and 1114.)



I'll say it again, put yourself in the place of team 48's driver. Would you have backed off just as they were about to score the ringer? I doubt it.

[CJV648]

What happened is the reason why we will only get one tiny drivetrain motor in next year's game.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by CJV648

What happened is the reason why we will only get one tiny drivetrain motor in next year's game.

A little humor is good. Why is he getting neg reps?

[KTorak]

Let's stop negative repping others, especially new members into the ground for their opinion just because you don't agree. Negative repping is for malicious posts, posts/topics in bad-taste, misleading information, or false information.

On the other hand, they are just dots.

But let's not let this get out of hand so it has to be closed and/or moderated. So with that, sit back, take a deep breath, and think about what you post before you post it so you don't regret saying something later because it was a spur of the moment strike against someone else.

[scipio]

Once again i would like to point out that every 48 backed off 1114, 1114 backed up w/ them therefor when 48 resumed defence, they were in violation of the rules...although 1114's arm braking off is unfortunate, sometimes that is just the result of of rough play in a very rough match...

[J Flex 188]

Easy now everyone, remember what everyone else has been talking about the entire time about posting without emotion and being as objective as possible. Posts like this below that are poorly formed and don't quote any specific source other than the fact that they are "in violation of the rules" do not serve any purpose in this thread and only further increase the likelihood that more lines will be drawn in the sand without proper understanding of the situation, or at least as close as it can come. I will guarantee you that you cannot cite a source in the rules that states that a robot backing up when another robot is playing defence on them is in violation of anything.

Lastly, no amount of rough play justifies being a piece of machinery as significant and as large as an arm being torn off. If that were your robot, think about how you would feel.

Originally Posted by scipio

Once again i would like to point out that every 48 backed off 1114, 1114 backed up w/ them therefor when 48 resumed defence, they were in violation of the rules...although 1114's arm braking off is unfortunate, sometimes that is just the result of of rough play in a very rough match...

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by J Flex 188

Lastly, no amount of rough play justifies being a piece of machinery as significant and as large as an arm being torn off.

The force and aggression 48 exerted was extremely great to cause the joint break and rack shift. I feel the rack movement is a combination of 1114's robust (yes, I said robust) design and a "greasier" rack that seemed increasingly easier to move as the regional weeks moved on. This is the action and accompanying sound that sickened me when I first saw it happen. After watching the video in more detail, however, 1114's action of backing up following the break did a substantial amount of the separating and final amputation. It appears once they realized their arm was broken, they did what was necessary to extract themselves from the ringer to go continue to be productive on the other side of the field. I would expect nothing less from such fierce competitors. I think the act of 1114 helping to sever their own arm is important to note, considering everyone is attaching the "vicious" appearance of the entire process solely to 48's robot.

Also, a few other observations having studied the video, purely from the DRIVER'S point of view.

• The middle spider was almost full at the time this happened, so visibility was limited, especially for a kid who's really not that tall.
• If you look, the difference in position between the "I have a ringer and I want to score on the middle spider" arm position and the "I'm being pushed into the middle spider by a defender" arm position isn't all that significant, and much of the arm is obscured by ringers already scored at the height of the middle spider level.
• The announcer didn't indicate he was aware of the broken arm until 1114 started ripping away from the part still attached to the spider leg. His attention may have been diverted elsewhere for a few moments, but his vantagepoint was unquestionably better than our driver's. If he didn't notice this until later, is it out of the question to believe our driver couldn't tell the arm was broken?
• Finally, I can never really tell if the blue ringer was ever officially scored per the rules. At the end, when 1114's arm was dangling off of it, the ringer was perched on top of the "stinger". Does this count as being scored? I really don't know - we aren't in the business of scoring ringers (save for an attempt to score a keeper in auton on Thursday).

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

Just because they knew what happened doesn't make them guilty! It may be hard to see from behind the rack and across the field, but sounds travels fine and I'm sure they hear the crack and saw the arm dangling from the ringer...
They stopped playing defense on 1114 because playing defense against a bot that can't score isn't much use. Or would it be more "graciously professional" to pretend like they still did?

Carl,

Team 48 denies knowing that the arm snapped off, this is what I am disputing. I agree it doesn't make them guilty of showing intent, but it does show that the knew the arm broke off, that's all.

Again, people feel so badly for 1114 because they're such a grade A+ team and would likely have been Curie champs (and then who knows what). This section of the stands obviously failed to see things objectively here. 1114 = good guys; 48 = bad guys. right?

Team 1114 has never been a fan favourite at any event, you know that better than anyone. Considering in the past people have cheered when our robot has broken, including people from a team you know rather well. Neither of us can know why 48 was booed, my guess is that it was because people thought it was a dirty play. Also, I wouldn't say it was likely that we would have been Curie division champs. 330 (best robot in 2007, hands down), 910 and 1270 would have had a lot to say about that.

I'll say it again, put yourself in the place of team 48's driver. Would you have backed off just as they were about to score the ringer? I doubt it.

I most definitely would have backed off. I know you wouldn't have, but that's what makes us different.

[Vogel648]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Carl,

Team 48 denies knowing that the arm snapped off, this is what I am disputing. I agree it doesn't make them guilty of showing intent, but it does show that the knew the arm broke off, that's all.

I believe you are misrepresenting what he's saying, as far as I can tell what he's saying is he didn't realize that your arm was about to fail before it did. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I would apreciate you pointing me to the post in which it was said.

Thanks
-nrv.

[Kate00]

Karthik:
Fact: After the arm snapped off, 48 stopped playing defense on 1114, making it seem like they knew what had happened

Carl:
Just because they knew what happened doesn't make them guilty! It may be hard to see from behind the rack and across the field, but sounds travels fine and I'm sure they hear the crack and saw the arm dangling from the ringer...
They stopped playing defense on 1114 because playing defense against a bot that can't score isn't much use. Or would it be more "graciously professional" to pretend like they still did?

Karthik:
Team 48 denies knowing that the arm snapped off, this is what I am disputing. I agree it doesn't make them guilty of showing intent, but it does show that the knew the arm broke off, that's all.

Originally Posted by Vogel648

I believe you are misrepresenting what he's saying, as far as I can tell what he's saying is he didn't realize that your arm was about to fail before it did. Of course I could be wrong, in which case I would apreciate you pointing me to the post in which it was said.

Thanks
-nrv.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think you're trying to say is Karthik is misinterpreting what Carl is saying, and what Carl is saying is that Carl didn't realize that 1114's arm was about to fail before it did?

Carl is not on 48, let alone their driveteam. I don't understand how you think he could not have realized their arm was going to break before it did. In the video, the arm clearly moves the rack, flexes, and then the aluminum tubing snaps. I don't understand how 48 could have failed to see the rack spinning, the spider legs pushed all to one side, and thought "oh, this is normal and fine." 48 then clearly pulls off after the snap, like they recognized what they did. I don't understand what the issue is. Please clarify.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by CJV648

I think the above statement is ungracious and I believe Karthik should withdraw it.

Carl stated he wouldn't have backed off, Karthik would have backed off so there is the difference. There is nothing ungracious about that statement.

BTW Carl and Karthik are friends.

[Vogel648]

From a third person prespective it seemed inflamatory to me as well. *shrug* I guess it's just a misunderstanding.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by EnderWiggin

As a driver who has played some defense this year I would have done the exact same thing as 48's driver. If you're trying to defend against someone who is just about to score but hasn't yet placed and released the ringer you're a bad driver if you DON'T keep pushing

All right Carl you got a point here, but you gota look at the footage more. Take a look between 1:18 and 1:28 throughout this time 48 was pinning 1114. They were going full out and drove right through 1114 while their arm was clearly tangled in the rack. This 10 seconds proves to me that yes, 48 was pinning. Also seeing 48 drive through 1114 like that while they were obviously tangled in the rack for 5-6 seconds till the point where the arm broke is something I doubt you would do (or I would let you do as operator).

edit: looking at the footage i would extend that pinning back to 1:15...
There's a reason we don't build bully bots anymore

[EnderWiggin]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Norris

They were going full out and drove right through 1114 while their arm was clearly tangled in the rack. This 10 seconds proves to me that yes, 48 was pinning. Also seeing 48 drive through 1114 like that while they were obviously tangled in the rack for 5-6 seconds till the point where the arm broke is something I doubt you would do (or I would let you do as operator).

From a viewer you see 1114 as being tangled in the rack. As a driver and strategist I see them as trying to score, trying to complete a row that's going to lose the match for my alliance.

So what is pinning exactly? I see it as one team blocking a team against a solid structure as to prevent them from doing anything. Something swinging around and movable (especially something you are trying to score on) should hardly count. Remember in '06 when you were allowed to pin indefinitely on the ramp? The same mentality should still apply and I think that's how the refs were thinking.

The real problem here isn't robot design or play, it's the game itself. FIRST should have known better than to make game structures that extend at a perfect height to clothesline a robot or to snap an arm off. The enclosed space makes things even worse.

"Aim High" was designed with gameplay in mind, something they apparently forgot with Rack 'n Roll. I hope FIRST takes the same '06 approach next year.